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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by doubleajaybrock View Post
    This may have been discussed all ready, so I apologize in advance.

    JJ, could you please clarify for everyone what you are asking about specifically, when you say effective range?

    I hate seeing a thread continue in confusion when the question is not clear...

    There are so many knowledgeable people on this site with years of physical experience with this caliber (not just theoretical couch commandos with Call of Duty training) that if you are truly looking for an answer, you are going to find it here.

    BTW- I can stop iron sheep & pigs constantly up to 600 yards with factory SSA commercial ammo out of a 16" Noveske.
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  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by rifter View Post
    Over in the CMP M1 Garand forums we were having a discussion on the relative effective ranges of the M1, M14, and M16. Quite a bit of the discussion centered around whether or not the M16 was any good past 200 yards. One of the guys posted a monograph title "Taking Back the Infantry Half Kilometer" by a serving active duty Army Major. In it, he discussed training regimens for marksmanship going all the way back to WWI, and how we no longer train our troops to accurately handle shooting at ranges of 500 yards or more.

    A good part of the piece was also about how to remedy this situation (all in reference to the typical engagement in Afghanistan being beyond the 200 yard effective range of the 5.56). One idea he pushed quite hard was retrofitting current M16 rifles with new A4 type uppers in 6.8 SPC because the only change beyond that needed is changing the follower in the magazines. He gave a lot of ballistic data showing that the 6.8 has as much energy at 500 yards as the 5.56 has at 200, and is just as accurate.

    This report was passed up the chain of command to the highest levels, and part of the reason why the Army is reissuing M14 rifles on a limited basis to many units while they hash out whether or not to switch to the 6.8. Pretty interesting reading. It had a lot to do with my decision to go with the 6.8 when I bought my AR.
    It's a barrel, bolt, and magazine change (compared to 5.56), not just a follower in the standard GI mags...

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moonie View Post
    Actually the Army doesn't but the Marines DO train at 500. One of my sons joined the Marines last year, in boot they trained at 500.

    That's very true, and the Major made that point in his monograph.

    Note to Rutgers95, et. al. : I have a PDF file of the monograph. Can I upload it here anywhere to make it available to everyone? It's about 1.2 meg in size.
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  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by rifter View Post
    That's very true, and the Major made that point in his monograph.

    Note to Rutgers95, et. al. : I have a PDF file of the monograph. Can I upload it here anywhere to make it available to everyone? It's about 1.2 meg in size.
    http://defensetech.org/2010/03/01/ta...alf-kilometer/

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2452475/posts

    http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc...c=GetTRDoc.pdf

    Last link is the PDF file referred to by rifter...

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuicksilverJPR View Post
    It's a barrel, bolt, and magazine change (compared to 5.56), not just a follower in the standard GI mags...
    Yeah. As I said, change out the upper, and a magazine fix.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuicksilverJPR View Post
    It's a barrel, bolt, and magazine change (compared to 5.56), not just a follower in the standard GI mags...
    It never gets brought up, but what about the rear sight elevation? Especially if we are discussing USMC 500 yd training, there might be a few more clicks needed on the elevation ring to drop them into black.

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by rifter View Post
    Yeah. As I said, change out the upper, and a magazine fix.
    Sorry, I'm partly agreeing with you, and partly not! Changing out the follower on standard mags is not going to make a 5.56 mag a 6.8 mag, which is how I take what you typed...

    "A good part of the piece was also about how to remedy this situation (all in reference to the typical engagement in Afghanistan being beyond the 200 yard effective range of the 5.56). One idea he pushed quite hard was retrofitting current M16 rifles with new A4 type uppers in 6.8 SPC because the only change beyond that needed is changing the follower in the magazines."

  8. #28
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    NOW CUT THAT OUT! You must be reading over my shoulder...
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  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by 68WJ View Post
    It never gets brought up, but what about the rear sight elevation? Especially if we are discussing USMC 500 yd training, there might be a few more clicks needed on the elevation ring to drop them into black.
    That would entirely depend on the round(s) selected for use, which is like step 55 at this point (and we're not even at step 1 yet, in all actuality)...

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuicksilverJPR View Post
    Sorry, I'm partly agreeing with you, and partly not! Changing out the follower on standard mags is not going to make a 5.56 mag a 6.8 mag, which is how I take what you typed...

    "A good part of the piece was also about how to remedy this situation (all in reference to the typical engagement in Afghanistan being beyond the 200 yard effective range of the 5.56). One idea he pushed quite hard was retrofitting current M16 rifles with new A4 type uppers in 6.8 SPC because the only change beyond that needed is changing the follower in the magazines."
    I have been told by either an RRA factory rep or by the shop where I bought my RRA that changing the follower was essentially all that had to be done on the mag -- don't remember which it was. I didn't go beyond that as far as questioning the issue. I do know that I can stick a standard 5.56 mag in my RRA magazine well and it locks up nice and snug, so I've never really questioned just changing the follower. I note also that the RRA 458 Socom uses standard 5.56 mags with no changes at all, it just becomes single column feed with that big fat round.
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