Tubbs Final Finish: Load Data

[Tim_W]

It is improtant to understadn how Tubbs works. The bullet as you know has grit on it in steps getting finer and finer with each group.

The idea is the grit is to polish the bore as it goes down. When used pit does this very very well. I have personally seen group sizes cut in half and pressures drop enough to an extra grain or more to be added. As I do a lot of barrel now I prefer hand lapping but more many this is great way to handle it. In fact I was the first one to introduce the Tubbs product to this board way way back. I find almost everything they offer to be very good. I strongly recommend all of there AR springs if you are not using them yet. SSS buffer, bolt, and trigger springs are without peer.

Back to the TFF. To make that polish/lap the entire bore the bullet must fully engage the entire groove area. To do this the bullet must fully expand. With light slow powder loads this does not happen as well it works just not as well. This has been confirmed by checking before and afters with bore scopes. Given this I would rather see a round loaded with the slightly faster powders such as X-terminator, H322 10x You could even go to Rel 7 4198 but you may have to single load as it may not cycle well. With the still fairly fast powder above you want the load to be hot enough to cycle the gun for sure. That is a great way to check if you need a hotter load.

So you want a stiff load for this bullet but that would not be as large a powder charge as a stiff load for a normal uncoated bullet but close.

The reason TFF states to use a faster powder is because with a heavier bullet than normal for that burn rate you get a very extreme front end pressure spike load and then just as extreme drop off. This does one thing, it tends to get the base of the bullet fully expanded quickly. As I said earlier this is the key to getting the most out of this system. The thing with the 6.8 is we already tend to use powders that are much faster that what would normally be chosen for a bullet of the weights and size used because we have limited powder capacity specially because of the short COAL we are limited to.

Powders that work very well X-term, H335, H322, 10x

Loads I have used that provided to work well:

The specs for the belwo are :

Case: SSA

Primer: CCI BR-4, #41, Wolf 5.56 or Wolf 223 M

COAL: 2.27"-2.28" I suggest 2.28" which will work in all mags except eh below spec COAL Barrett mags which you can load past 2.25.

Powder Charges:

26.0 gr RamShot X-Terminator

26.0 gr Hogdgon H322

28.0 gr Hogdgon H335

25.0 gr Alliant 10x

24.0 gr Norma 200

27.2 gr Acurate Arms AA2230

28.7 gr Acurate Arms AA2520


If you want to be really sure on the loads then you could go out and buy some Sierra 130 SP and try some loads up and then back off a .5 gr for the coated ones. I certainly recommend this is you want to use the really fats powder which IMO is unnecessary as these are plenty fast and much faster than the ones they intended as this was meant for the 270 Win and the same max and running PSIs as the 6.8 at 55K. I would say a load of 22.8 of H4198 woudl be in the ball park but that up to you. Anything faster than those listed will likely not cycle. But that has no meaning in this game if you are going to use super fast powders.


The over all length of the bullet is important. Many 130s are very long such as the Hrdy one that was posted above. The ones used in the TFF are Sierras. Tubbs uses Sierra exclusively. They use to be 135SMK but now use 130 SPBT they wanted a bullet with a long body as this is what does all the work. Long necks are of no use. Sierra 130 is 1.070 Hrdy Intelocker is 1.264 which in this round is a HUGE differnce hence the COAL warning and why they are not used. This is why you can not jsut look up other 130 gr bullets and try to use that data. Now you will get very close if you find the dame OAL such as Speer and Sierras tend to use about the same data but not exact. Sierra's are lower pressure.

For those other bullets load them with a normal mid power load. Enough to cycle the gun but not smoking hot. Basically, match factory velocities at most.

Now how to use the TFF:

This is best used on a never fired brand new barrel but can be used at any time.

Equipment and supplies Needed:

* 1x .270 Tubbs Final Finish Kits

* 10-20 more bullets of your choice but the longer the body of the bullet the better 130 Sierra SP, 115 Sierra MK , 110 Sierra Pro Hunter, 115 Remington MC ( FMJ)

* Huge bag of patches (You are going to be using a ton of them trust me. You do not want to end up having to cut up you boxers do you!?!)

* Bore Guide: Sinclair or other is fine Sinclair best cost/quality. This is mandatory don;t even think about trying to get by.

* Coated Cleaning Rod: Dewey 30" ( best buy for quality/cost ratio Dewey Rod I recommend a 30" rod its not jsut barrel length it has to clear. It has to clear the bore guide the muzzle device and still have some room left)

* Cleaning Rod Tips: Jag Tip, Nylon Brushes, Mop ( get at least a couple of each. Try not to get bronze if you can find nylon brushes get 7mm brush as well as a .270 The 7 mm use if at all possible)

* Bore Snake .270 size if you have a 7 mm cal try it as if you feel you can pull it it wil be best and is what I use.

* Bore Paste: IOSSO, JB, KG (For this I recommend IOSSO)

* Cleaning Chemicals and Lubricant: KG-1 Carbon Cleaner, KG 12 Big Bore Cleaner, Hoppes or any good oil Not anything to thick like you use for the action. It will not come out and will cause issue trust me.

Step 1: What type of barrel quality is it? Anything short of hand lapped barrel use the whole kit. Hand lapped are going to be full match barrels not what some on here call match barrels. WOA, BISON, WILSON,Titan Armory's ARE NOT MATCH barrels. AR Performance has both Match and NON Match You will know if you purchased a match from them if not call and ask or PM or if needed ask me and I will find out. Kreiger, Pac Nor, Douglas Hand Lapped version, Bartlein, Hart, Lilja are examples of REAL match barrels. On those last ones at the very most they need TTM throat maintenance.

Step 2: You need a through cleaning especially if previously shot. All Titan Armory barrel and I know ARP are test shot for function on upper builds. PRi test fires ALL of their uppers and guns as well and they tend to use full match barrels and thus woudl not be a candidate for TFF but TTMS. Other than that WOA, Bison, RRA, etc do not to our knowledge. This is one of the few times you will see me recommend a bore paste such as IOSSO, KG or JB Bore Paste. Clean it well and follow up with a good liquid copper cleaner. You should do at least 50 strokes with the paste. Wrap a patch around the brush. Never let the brush exit the muzzle . If ti does unscrew it and reattach after you pull the rod back out. The very best is KG 12 nothing comes close trust me I have extensively tested it. Nothing even remotely close. Wipe Out Foaming Bore cleaner with the accelerator will also work quite well just make sure to let it sit for about 30-1hr. A very lightly oiled patch followed by a dry one and you are ready.

Step 3: Shot the entire first group of 10 TFF bullets. Do so slowly 1 every 30 seconds or so.

Step 4: Clean the barrel with KG -1 followed up with KG-12 copper cleaner. let sit and soak for a couple mins. Clean. Oil patch dry patch.

Step 5: Shoot the entire set of 10 bullets from Group 2. Doing so slowly 1 every 30 seconds or so.

Step 6: Clean the barrel with KG -1 followed up with KG-12 copper cleaner. let sit and soak for a couple mins. Clean. Oil patch dry patch.

Step 7: Shoot the entire set of 10 bullets from Group 3. Doing so slowly 1 every 30 seconds or so.

Step 8: Clean the barrel with KG -1 followed up with KG-12 copper cleaner. let sit and soak for a couple mins. Clean. Oil patch dry patch.

Step 9: Shoot the entire set of 10 bullets from Group 4. Doing so slowly 1 every 30 seconds or so.

Step 10: Clean the barrel with KG -1 followed up with KG-12 copper cleaner. let sit and soak for a couple mins. Clean. Oil patch dry patch. Did you see any copper on the patch with and after the Kg-12 soak? It will show as a very faint brown streak.

Step 11: Shoot the entire set of 10 bullets from Group 5. Doing so slowly 1 every 30 seconds or so.

Step 12: Clean the barrel with KG -1 followed up with KG-12 copper cleaner. Oil patch dry patch. Do you see any copper? It will show as a very faint brown streak. You likely will not see any copper what so ever. This is good.

Step 13: Shoot 10 rounds of the regualr bullets you have loaded up. Same slow pace. ( This is a great time to start zeroing in your sights etc..)

Step 14: This is if you have no copper fouling from the last set. Now run a oil patch followed by your Bore Snake a couple of times. If there was copper follow the other cleaning instructions for the other steps and check for copper. you should be good on this one for sure.

Step 15: Shot the last 10 rounds you loaded of regular bullets. Oil patch followed by your Bore Snake a few times. Follow with a oiled patch if you are putting it away or a dry patch if you plan to keep shooting.

What those last rounds do is a very fine burnishing using the very small amount of carbon left in the bore. They fill in the microscopic cracks and imperfections in the bore surface.

My recommendations from there: People clean their barrels to much. For the last 5+ years been a trend to reducing the amount and aggressiveness of bore cleaning even in the professional shooting arena. I feel strongly the same way. First its the amount fo cleaning that is mainly at issue. When we clean aggressively we tend to change the surface at the microscopic level. Also since very few are equipped with Bore scopes people tend to over clean as a just in case kind of thing. Here is the reason its not a good idea form accuracy as in shooting groups. It is easy to understand how shooting tiny groups is all about consistency. From out hold to the4 ammo to the bore that bullet travels down. How many bullets of a group are from a clean barrel? Only the first one. After that each bullet gets a slightly different surface until a sort of happy medium ins reached. So regularly cleaning needs to be no more than to remove large surface builds ups and copper. A properly broken-in barrel with cartridges with low powder charges such as out 6.8s and lower pressure compared to the 65K magnums fouling is almsot nonexistent until you get way up into the round counts. We currently have one test barrel that has never been cleaned. It has over 5K round thru it and the only copper fouling is a small very thin pencil line about a 1/2" long streak. That's it. So if we want the most consistent surface for out bullets it is not a squeaky clean one but one with a microscopic amount of carbon burnished into the surface. We also save on cleaning and time not to mention the possibilities of creating damage from a improper cleaning technique or accident. Also repeated brushing will round the edges of lands this is especially true it you use pastes. This is why after you do a aggressive cleaning you basically have to re-burnish your barrel again which takes 10-25 rounds. the rule of thumb we recommend is to do few bore snake pull thru followed by a oiled patch then dry one. This would be the equivalent to a couple passes with a nylon bore bush with oil followed by a number of lightly oiled patch and then dry ones. At most use some Hoppes #9 Man I love the smell and I think why I still use it even though I know I do not need to. So for me I run a patch of Hoppes #9 the follow it with a bore snake then a oiled patch and dry patch. This after a full range session. If at the range all I do is run the bore snake thru twice and keep shooting groups. Now if you see accuracy slowing dropping off with your known accuracy load it's time to a real deep cleaning.

For this you will want KG-1 carbon then KG-12 copper cleaner or the Wipe Out Foaming Bore Cleaner with accelerator solution version of cleaning. After this you can expect 10 rounds or so to get it settled back down. On the rest of the gun that's up to you: sparkling safe queen or only clean when you start to get malfunctions or chunks of carbon clowning out during firing finally start to get you strange looks. the Ar is rather self-cleaning at the function level. When carbon gets to a certain point its knocked off. SO as long as you are soaking it with oil and make sure to keep the trigger are out of trouble you should be fine. You should see what some of the guns look like at some of these high round carbine courses such as Rogers

[mogunr]

Good write up Tim and right on time; my TFF just dropped off by the "little brown truck". Now if I can get Troy to get a TRX
Extreme to H; I'll be in business.
Question; Do you use your Bore Snake dry or do you apply something to it like Breakfree or Hoppes? Also, I suppose you clean,
copper clean, Iosso paste, clean (or flush w/brake cleaner?) oil, dry patch in that order? Breakfree OK to use?
Thanks Tim

[Colohunter]

Very interesting write up Tim, I had seen these but hadn't really known if it would be worth trying. I might be interested in trying it out now that you have explained it a little more. So since I have a PRI barrel on my 6.8 I'm guessing you would just suggest going with the throat maintenance version? I also have a Remington SPS-V in 308 that I haven't gotten to shoot much for lack of a scope. I might have to try this out on that as well.

[CaseyJ]

Awesome write up Tim! Thanks

[Tim_W]

Very interesting write up Tim, I had seen these but hadn't really known if it would be worth trying. I might be interested in trying it out now that you have explained it a little more. So since I have a PRI barrel on my 6.8 I'm guessing you would just suggest going with the throat maintenance version? I also have a Remington SPS-V in 308 that I haven't gotten to shoot much for lack of a scope. I might have to try this out on that as well.

Yes at the most. They use a a true match hand lapped barrel. The only thing that isz done after hand lapping is the chamber is cut in. That is where the throat will have tooling marks no way around it. That is were almost all fouling comes from on top end barrels. But many do not know this becasue of the way fouling from the throat occurs. What happens is because of how close that throat is to the chamber and where the ignition and most heat is it literally atomizes the copper. This copper then follows and settles down the bore as the bullet travels down it. Its speckles the bore. Its apparent ina bore scope if you see a pic or video of it. This leades many to incorrect deduce that the bore is where the issue is. Its the throat.

In the TMS kit there are three groups IIRC. I Will try to get up a step by step use for them as its a bit differnet than the bigger TFF kit.

Did you Pri come with a test target with the group shot on it? I know Dave use to do that and think he still does. I will tell you and everyone else. Dave of PRI is oen fo the most helpful generous and knowledgeable people in this industry. He is always willing to help. He will still do a deal on only hand shake. The man is one the few that still has morals and understands and has honor. Very rare traits in this game anymore. I know one of my customers was on a deadline to go n a hunt and had mag issue. DAve earliest AM overnighted him his personal mada as he knew 100% they were without issue. No CC info nothing jsut a address phone and call me when you get back. That man has my full and total respect.

[Colohunter]

Again, thanks for the info, I would be really interested in a write up on the TMS when you get a chance. I am always impressed with the information I can get on this site. It is nice actually having some industry professionals hanging around here giving us info.

I didn't get a test target with the barrel, I got it second hand through a coworker that had a "connection." It came new and sealed in plastic, but no information with it. It was actually a pretty good deal and is what got me into the 6.8.

[indathome]

Thanks for the timely info Tim - I just recieved two TFF sets in the mail yesterday. It appears that Tubbs is manufacturing the .277 kit in both 115gr and 130gr. I know this because for some reason MidwayUSA sent me one of each! Scale confirms the weights.

Based on your write-up it seems like your loads are for 130gr. Is this so? How would you load the 115gr (I have both H335 and H322 available)? Also, I second the question about dry/wet boresnakes.

Thanks for the help.

[Adk Rebel]

Tim,

Do you have any experience with these from Otis? I met them at a trade show and they talked it up pretty big.

http://www.otisgun.com/cgistore/stor...id=967712.7928


Rich

[smoffett]

Are TFF or TMS okay to use in a chrome-lined barrel?

[Colohunter]

Are TFF or TMS okay to use in a chrome-lined barrel?

I looked at a PDF file on Midway that looked like instructions from Tubbs and it said that it could be used on chrome lined barrels.