He survived Iraq

[mas360]

TUCSON, Ariz. (AP) — Jose Guerena Ortiz was sleeping after an exhausting 12-hour night shift at a copper mine. His wife, Vanessa, had begun breakfast. Their 4-year-old son, Joel, asked to watch cartoons.
An ordinary morning was unfolding in the middle-class Tucson neighborhood — until an armored vehicle pulled into the family's driveway and men wearing heavy body armor and helmets climbed out, weapons ready.
They were a sheriff's department SWAT team who had come to execute a search warrant. But Vanessa Guerena insisted she had no idea, when she heard a "boom" and saw a dark-suited man pass by a window, that it was police outside her home. She shook her husband awake and told him someone was firing a gun outside.
A U.S. Marine veteran of the Iraq war, he was only trying to defend his family, she said, when he grabbed his own gun — an AR-15 assault rifle.
What happened next was captured on video after a member of the SWAT team activated a helmet-mounted camera.

The officers — four of whom carried .40-caliber handguns while another had an AR-15 — moved to the door, briefly sounding a siren, then shouting "Police!" in English and Spanish. With a thrust of a battering ram, they broke the door open. Eight seconds passed before they opened fire into the house.
And 10 seconds later, Guerena lay dying in a hallway 20-feet from the front door. The SWAT team fired 71 rounds, riddling his body 22 times, while his wife and child cowered in a closet.

"Hurry up, he's bleeding," Vanessa Guerena pleaded with a 911 operator. "I don't know why they shoot him. They open the door and shoot him. Please get me an ambulance."
When she emerged from the home minutes later, officers hustled her to a police van, even as she cried that her husband was unresponsive and bleeding, and that her young son was still inside. She begged them to get Joel out of the house before he saw his father in a puddle of blood on the floor.
But soon afterward, the boy appeared in the front doorway in Spider-Man pajamas, crying.

The Pima County Sheriff's Department said its SWAT team was at the home because Guerena was suspected of being involved in a drug-trafficking organization and that the shooting happened because he arrived at the door brandishing a gun. The county prosecutor's office says the shooting was justified.
But six months after the May 5 police gunfire shattered a peaceful morning and a family's life, investigators have made no arrests in the case that led to the raid. Outraged friends, co-workers and fellow Marines have called the shooting an injustice and demanded further investigation. A family lawyer has filed a multimillion-dollar lawsuit against the sheriff's office. And amid the outcry in online forums and social media outlets, the sheriff's 54-second video, which found its way to YouTube, has drawn more than 275,000 views.
The many questions swirling around the incident all boil down to one, repeated by Vanessa Guerena, as quoted in the 1,000-page police report on the case:
"Why, why, why was he killed?"
___
Outside the family's stucco home, a giant framed photo of Guerena in his Marine uniform sat placed in the front bay window, American flags waved in the yard and signs condemning his death were taped to the garage door.
The 27-year-old Guerena had completed two tours in Iraq, and a former superior there was among those who couldn't make sense of his death.
Leo Verdugo said Guerena stood out among other Marines for his maturity and sense of responsibility. Verdugo, who retired as a master sergeant last year after 25 years in the Marines, placed Guerena in charge of an important helicopter refueling mission in the remote west desert of Iraq.
"He had a lot of integrity and he was a man of his word," Verdugo said.
Verdugo, who also lives in Tucson, said Guerena came to him for advice in 2006 about whether to retire from the Marines and apply to the Border Patrol.
When Verdugo ran into Guerena and his wife at a Motor Vehicle Department office about a month before Guerena was killed, Verdugo said that Guerena told him that the Border Patrol had turned him down because of problems with his vision and that he had instead taken a mining job.
Those who worked with Guerena at ASARCO'S Mission Mine said the man they knew would never be a part of drug smuggling.
"I don't care what the cops say. I don't believe for one moment Jose was involved in anything illegal," said Sharon Hargrave, a co-worker, adding through tears: "They were judge, jury and executioner, and there was no excuse."
Guerena worked as a "helper" at two crushers in the mine, shoveling piles of rocks that fall from conveyor belts and wheel-barrowing heavy debris. "No one in their right mind" would choose this work, which paid about $41,000 a year, if they were bringing in drug smuggling money, Hargrave said.
"He was a hell of a worker," she said. "He's got good judgment and I could trust him."
She said Guerena talked constantly about his wife and two sons, Joel and Jose Jr., 5, who'd gone to school the morning of the shooting. "I know he was definitely in love with his wife and in love with his kids," she said.
Kevin Stephens, a chief steward at Mission mine and head of the miners' union there, said bluntly: "Personally, I think he was murdered, and that is the feeling that is out here."
But the sheriff's office said just because Guerena was a Marine and worked at a mine doesn't mean he couldn't be involved in drug trafficking.
"We know from our experiences that good people turn their lives around and do bad things, and this guy was bad irrespective of his honorable discharge as a Marine," said sheriff's chief of investigations Rick Kastigar.
He said Guerena was suspected of involvement in a drug operation that specialized in ripping off other smugglers. One tip held that Guerena was "the muscle" of the organization, or in Kastigar's words, "the individual that was directed to exact revenge."
An affidavit supporting the search warrant that precipitated the raid describes the department's suspicions about Guerena in a drug investigation that appeared more focused on his brother, and his brother's father-in-law. Guerena's brother does not have a listed number and other family members have ignored written requests from the AP for comment.
Sheriff's Capt. Chris Nanos, who heads the criminal investigations division and oversaw the Guerena case, said that high-powered rifles and bulletproof vests that were found in Guerena's home after the shooting back up investigators' belief that Guerena was involved in drug trafficking. A shotgun found in the home was reported stolen in Tucson in 2008.
In the affidavit, sheriff's Detective Alex Tisch laid out the case against Guerena's family. It details two instances of drug seizures, one in April 2009 in which Jose Guerena was found in a home with other people who had just dropped off 1,000 pounds of marijuana at a separate residence, and another in October 2009 in which a man who had met with Guerena's brother was found with drugs and weapons.
Neither Guerena nor his brother was charged.
The affidavit also cites two traffic stops of Jose Guerena.
The first was on Jan. 28, 2009, when an officer pulled Guerena and two other men over north of Tucson. The officer seized a gun from Guerena, a marijuana pipe from Guerena's cousin and marijuana hidden in canisters of lemonade and hot cocoa that were under the feet of Guerena's friend.
The officer arrested Guerena on charges of weapons misconduct, marijuana possession and possession of drug paraphernalia. But prosecutors filed no charges against him.
The other stop came Sept. 15, 2009, when the sheriff's office pulled over a truck leaving the home of Guerena's brother. Jose Guerena was in the passenger seat and another man was driving. Officers searched the truck and found commercial-sized rolls of plastic wrap that they say are commonly used to package marijuana. No arrests were made.
Tisch wrote in the affidavit that the past arrests of Guerena and members of his family, combined with observations during months of surveillance led detectives to believe that the family was operating a mid-level drug-trafficking organization in the Tucson area.
The investigation is ongoing, the sheriff's office says.
___
After the SWAT video circulated, people who didn't know Guerena traveled from as far as California to march in protest of his shooting, and an Alaska woman began an online petition calling for a federal investigation of the SWAT team. Hundreds of people across the country have written on several Facebook pages dedicated to Guerena with messages that include, "He fought for our country, now we must fight for him."
The Guereno family's lawyer, Christopher Scileppi, filed a lawsuit on their behalf seeking damages from the sheriff's office, the officers involved in the shooting and other officials. The lawsuit didn't specify how much money the family was seeking, but a notice of claim filed Aug. 9 put the amount at $20 million.
"During this investigation, extremely little evidence, if any, was found to raise even a suspicion that Jose Guerena was involved in any possible drug trafficking ring," the notice says.
Scileppi said the fact that Guerena had been fired at 71 times and hit 22 times was "grotesque," and "almost a caricature of an overly excited group of poorly trained law enforcement agents."
Kastigar sharply disputed that, calling the Pima County SWAT team one of the best of its kind in the nation. "We're not a bunch of country bumpkins in southern Arizona with big bellies and cowboy hats," he said.
The shooting was justified, he said, because Guerena pointed his AR-15 at the SWAT officers and said, "I've got something for you," before they opened fire.
The five SWAT team members who shot Guerena believed that he had fired his weapon first, he said. Subsequent investigation revealed that the gun's safety was on and hadn't been fired. Ultimately, that is not an issue, Kastigar said.
"What reasonable person comes to the front door and points a rifle at people?" he said. "It takes several milliseconds to flip the switch from safety to fire and take out a couple of SWAT officers. I'm firmly of the opinion that he was attempting to shoot at us."
The officers laid down "suppressive" fire because one had tripped and fallen and the others thought he'd been shot.
"You point a gun at police, you're going to get shot," Kastigar said.
The five officers who shot Guerena declined to speak to the AP through Mike Storie, a police union lawyer who represents them and defends their actions.
"Anytime that they are faced with a serious, imminent and deadly threat, they are entitled and justified to use deadly force," he said. "And when Guerena came around the corner and lifted an AR-15 and pointed it at them, that provided the justification."
An independent expert, Chuck Drago, a former longtime SWAT officer for Fort Lauderdale, Fla., police who now does consulting on use of force and other law enforcement issues, said that the shooting itself appeared justified.
"It's a horrible, horrible tragedy, but if they walked in the door and somebody came at them with an assault rifle, that would be a justifiable response," said Drago. "It doesn't matter whether he's innocent or not."
But after examining elements of the search affidavit, Drago questioned whether the sheriff's office truly had probable cause.
"When you back up and look at why they're there in the first place and whether the search warrant was proper, my mind starts struggling," Drago said. "There are a lot of things that don't make a lot of sense."

[Jamesb74]

This is an extremely screwed up event. No one won in this situation.


The first person to make a stupid comment in this thread will be taking a 30 day time out from this site no matter what the comment.

[SAMPSON]

Thats why any time I see an article or a headline regarding a use of force incident, the first thought I have is... "I always reserve judgement until I have all the facts of the case." knee jerk reactions are almost never correct.

[CodeRed30]

This is an extremely screwed up event. No one won in this situation.

This. Each side seems justified. The officers on the ground serving a warrant, and the veteran who was trying to protect his family. I heard about this event when it first happened and it still hurts to hear about it. I would have done the same thing on both sides of the situation...Just sucks...

[geistacwm]

That is an incredibly long post.


And a sad one.

[mas360]

That is a short post for such a tragic and controversial case. The post did not address a lot of critical details, but I guess they will not be available until the case goes to court.

As a gun owner, it startles me to read this statement by a police captain:

"Sheriff's Capt. Chris Nanos, who heads the criminal investigations division and oversaw the Guerena case, said that high-powered rifles and bulletproof vests that were found in Guerena's home after the shooting back up investigators' belief that Guerena was involved in drug trafficking"

Does that mean in the eyes of the law AR-15 owners are categorized as drug runner by default?

There are many LE officers here on this forum, what is your view on this aspect? is this the general sentiment among LE ?

[SAMPSON]

That is a short post for such a tragic and controversial case. The post did not address a lot of critical details, but I guess they will not be available until the case goes to court.

As a gun owner, it startles me to read this statement by a police captain:

"Sheriff's Capt. Chris Nanos, who heads the criminal investigations division and oversaw the Guerena case, said that high-powered rifles and bulletproof vests that were found in Guerena's home after the shooting back up investigators' belief that Guerena was involved in drug trafficking"

Does that mean in the eyes of the law AR-15 owners are categorized as drug runner by default?

There are many LE officers here on this forum, what is your view on this aspect? is this the general sentiment among LE ?
To me It has very little to do with the fact that he owned a few high powered rifles and bullet proof vests, and more to do with these parts.

"One tip held that Guerena was "the muscle" of the organization, or in Kastigar's words, "the individual that was directed to exact revenge."
A shotgun found in the home was reported stolen in Tucson in 2008.
In the affidavit, sheriff's Detective Alex Tisch laid out the case against Guerena's family. It details two instances of drug seizures, one in April 2009 in which Jose Guerena was found in a home with other people who had just dropped off 1,000 pounds of marijuana at a separate residence, and another in October 2009 in which a man who had met with Guerena's brother was found with drugs and weapons.
Neither Guerena nor his brother was charged.
The affidavit also cites two traffic stops of Jose Guerena.
The first was on Jan. 28, 2009, when an officer pulled Guerena and two other men over north of Tucson. The officer seized a gun from Guerena, a marijuana pipe from Guerena's cousin and marijuana hidden in canisters of lemonade and hot cocoa that were under the feet of Guerena's friend.
The officer arrested Guerena on charges of weapons misconduct, marijuana possession and possession of drug paraphernalia. But prosecutors filed no charges against him.
The other stop came Sept. 15, 2009, when the sheriff's office pulled over a truck leaving the home of Guerena's brother. Jose Guerena was in the passenger seat and another man was driving. Officers searched the truck and found commercial-sized rolls of plastic wrap that they say are commonly used to package marijuana. No arrests were made.
Tisch wrote in the affidavit that the past arrests of Guerena and members of his family, combined with observations during months of surveillance led detectives to believe that the family was operating a mid-level drug-trafficking organization in the Tucson area.
The investigation is ongoing, the sheriff's office says.

This information, to me, indicates that they were at the right house and looking to arrest him knowing that he was extremely involved.

Which brings me to my next point , - Dont shoot at the Police.- You can be right or you can be dead right.(in other words if you are within your legal rights under the law and the police start ordering you around I would advise you to follow their directions and cooperate or you could end up hurt or killed, even by accident. you may be right but you wont be around to collect a settlement for having your civil rights violated if you got yourself shot while fighting with the officers. Not to mention if you are resisting that is also a crime and there goes your credibility.)

It is unfortunate that a retired veteran had to be shot by police during a raid. It is even more unfortunate that a retired veteran decided he needed to use his training in the military to become a marajuana drug ring enforcer.

I'm sorry if this seems harsh but it is the truth and I hope that the discussion remains civil in here.

[mas360]

Those are very good points you highlighted. Geurena does not seem to be squeaky clean at all. The questions, which this news article has not addressed, include:

1) Why no charge was filed in the April and Oct 2009 incidents ? why prosecutor declined to press charge in traffic stop arrests on Jan 2009 and again on Sept 15, 2009 ? Four incidents an no charge/arrest taking place? there has to be a reason.
2) No drug was found in this raid and no arrest has taken place since Geurena was killed. Why and how the search warrant was initiated and approved to begin with?
3) What are the criteria to constitute a search warrant ? was a judge involved in reviewing and signing a search warrant ?
4) Was there sufficient probable cause to initiate a search warrant?

At this point it is not proper to determine whether the Pima Sheriff Office committed police brutality in conjunction with incompetence or Geurena was a Marine gone bad as alleged. LE has a tough job keeping the drug trade from exploding in the US as it does in Mexico, but at the same time inadequate command and control of militarized police force/tactic would lead to unfortunate bloodshed as in this case.

The positive note I see in this case so far is the fact that Geurena's AR-15 was unfired and safety was on. It indicates the SWAT team was honest. They could have easily switched the safety off and fired a shot to turn the entire incident 180 degrees around in their favor.

Back to the issue about high-powered rifles and bullet proof vest ownership. I read in other news articles about this case and it was reported that Geurena was wearing a boxer short (he was sleeping after a 12-hour shift at the mine) when he was gunned down. Pima County Sheriff Office Criminal Investigation Division characterizes Geurena as drug trafficker based on his ownership of high-powered rifles and bullet proof vest, which are perfectly legal items. That is the part I find alarming and am very surprised to hear it from a police captain. That means all of us here on this forum along with millions of other American gun owners are all viewed as potential drug runners ! I hope that is just a personal and highly prejudiced opinion of a police captain and not the official/unofficial sentiment and training of LE personnel in general.

[Fred_G]

A tragic events, I can see both sides. I am not a fan of these no knock type SWAT raids on peoples homes. Would it not been a lot easier to just arrest the guy during/after his shift at work? Surely an unmarked car could be parked in the parking lot, I doubt he would have put up much of a fight after a 12 hour shift in the mine. Or a planned traffic stop along his route home.

I don't know all the facts, and not a law enforcement expert. Just don't like these SWAT type raids on homes. And since I don't know the facts, I can't fault the SWAT members or the victim.

[sfsmedic]

Sad event. We must remember there are three sides to every story. Each parties side and then of course what really happened.

As for why no charges were ever charged in the previous cases, prosecutors many times will not touch a case for any number of reasons. They feel they can't win due to a poor case. Poor written report. The officer has a bad history with that prosecutor. Other more pertinent cases waiting to be tried. Etc.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mas360]

A tragic events, I can see both sides. I am not a fan of these no knock type SWAT raids on peoples homes. Would it not been a lot easier to just arrest the guy during/after his shift at work? Surely an unmarked car could be parked in the parking lot, I doubt he would have put up much of a fight after a 12 hour shift in the mine. Or a planned traffic stop along his route home.

I don't know all the facts, and not a law enforcement expert. Just don't like these SWAT type raids on homes. And since I don't know the facts, I can't fault the SWAT members or the victim.

I do not see the SWAT team being at fault for pulling triggers. They definitely had to open fire when suspect greeted them with an AR-15. That is a split second decision. However, the fact that five SWAT officers firing 71 rounds and hit Geurena 22 times shows a serious lack of fire control...especially where Geurena did not fire a single shot and his weapon was on safe. It does not take but one to five rounds of their .40 cal handguns and .223 to take Geurena down. The investigation as well as the news report did not go into details of how many hits took place AFTER Geurena was already on ground, how many by .40 cal bullets and by .223 bullets. It appears the SWAT team did not stop shooting until their mags ran dry. This is going to be a sore point when the case goes to court.

In any events, the taxpayers are going to end up paying the bills for any punitive damages awarded to plaintiff.

[Fred_G]

Wouldn't it have been easier to pull him over when he left work, or just get him before he got in his car? I have nothing against SWAT teams. My problem is with their use for serving warrants. Firing even 10 rounds increases the chance of an innocent person being inadvertently shot.

[stanc]

Back to the issue about high-powered rifles and bullet proof vest ownership. Pima County Sheriff Office Criminal Investigation Division characterizes Geurena as drug trafficker based on his ownership of high-powered rifles and bullet proof vest...
Not exactly. Possession of the rifles and body armor only backed up investigators' belief that Guerena was involved in drug trafficking. They were not the reason he was under suspicion in the first place, nor were they the reason for the search warrant to be issued.

That means all of us here on this forum along with millions of other American gun owners are all viewed as potential drug runners !
IMO, that's a needless fear. Generally speaking, you have to do more than own an assault rifle to be suspected of running drugs.

[mas360]

Wouldn't it have been easier to pull him over when he left work, or just get him before he got in his car? I have nothing against SWAT teams. My problem is with their use for serving warrants. Firing even 10 rounds increases the chance of an innocent person being inadvertently shot.

That was the very question news media raised regarding the BATF raid on Davidian compound in Waco. David Koresh was known to frequent certain restaurants in Waco. He could have been taken in custody without firing a shot. It goes back to the Command and Control of militarized police force, of when and where it is proper to deploy a brute force "search and destroy" mission versus a more subtle but yet more productive arrest/search warrant.

I have a gut feeling it may have something to do with justifying the cost to maintain a SWAT team as well. Afterall if a SWAT team sits idle for years between deployments someone is going to raise question of its existence and associated cost....especially in the tight economic and tax revenue reduction we are experiencing nationwide.

[Fred_G]

I can see the cost and deployment aspect. SWAT here is more qualified police officers, who are on call, and carry SWAT stuff in the trunk of their patrol car. They get a call, they SWAT up. Otherwise, I think they are just a more qualified officer doing regular police work. With an increase in pay.

Using SWAT to serve warrants in a home, is just wrong in my thinking. In my thinking SWAT is fro HRT, or time sensitive criminal activity. Not serving no knock warrants.

I think this was an administrative screw up.

[244]

That was the very question news media raised regarding the BATF raid on Davidian compound in Waco. David Koresh was known to frequent certain restaurants in Waco. He could have been taken in custody without firing a shot. It goes back to the Command and Control of militarized police force, of when and where it is proper to deploy a brute force "search and destroy" mission versus a more subtle but yet more productive arrest/search warrant.

I have a gut feeling it may have something to do with justifying the cost to maintain a SWAT team as well. Afterall if a SWAT team sits idle for years between deployments someone is going to raise question of its existence and associated cost....especially in the tight economic and tax revenue reduction we are experiencing nationwide.

The reason I see for attempting to arrest the suspect at his residence or "place of business" isn't to 'search and destroy', but to bring together the suspect and the evidence of the crime. It is far easier to prove in court that the person arrested out of the residence where he was counting money and packaging drugs is guilty versus arresting him as he leaves a fast food restaurant and then serving a warrant at his residence. In this world everyone has a cellular phone and as soon as someone is arrested everyone that knows the arrestee is calling around and putting the word out. Evidence gets destroyed and/or moved QUICKLY. If the residence is empty, who's money and drugs are they? Have the police had 24 hour surveillance for weeks to be sure that they know EVERYONE that has entered? If one of the suspect's friends or girlfriends is there are they then to be criminally charged since they are in "possession"?

I readily admit that drug enforcement activities can encourage LE to test the boundaries of Constitutional rights. It is the nature of the crime; addicts eagerly pay for the drugs they want. The victim of the crime is society due to the criminal activity addicts commit to pay for the drugs, the often violent/dangerous acts addicts commit while intoxicated, and an addicts inability to be a meaningful contributor to society. The high profitability of the drug trade, and stiff consequences if caught, encourage the dealers to be armed and violent.

These violent tendencies require LE to treat drug offenses with extra caution. SWAT officers are better trained and equipped than patrol officers to handle a violent armed encounter. I submit to you that this fact actually DECREASES the number of shootings due to the subject of the warrant realizing that they will not be able to defeat six well trained and equipped SWAT officers versus "standard" patrol officers.

[45onbrd]

These kind of headlines worry me. If somebody kicked my door in I would respond with gun in hand but how much time would the officers give me to lower it after identifying themselves? On the other side how long do you give a guy to lower his weapon before opening fire. I do think that the amount of shots fired at one man at close range is ridiculous. Even more ridiculous is the amount of hits obtained. This is why we let LEO's shoot IDPA with us for free and I among others provide ammo. If the swat team has a 30% hit rate, I'd hate to see the average traffic cop in action!

[dark1]

As a vet my self it means nothing to me that this man is a combat vet. I have don research on the case and this man was a to bit gangster that probably joined the mil in the first place to get training to more affectively commit crimes. This has become a giant problem in the army and USMC in the last 10 years. Just remember just bcos you are a vet doesn't make you a good person Tim McVey was a silver star recipient.

[mas360]

As a vet my self it means nothing to me that this man is a combat vet. I have don research on the case and this man was a to bit gangster that probably joined the mil in the first place to get training to more affectively commit crimes. This has become a giant problem in the army and USMC in the last 10 years. Just remember just bcos you are a vet doesn't make you a good person Tim McVey was a silver star recipient.

Does the military screen recruits for criminal record before signing them up?

Here in Houston about 20 years ago a Sheriff Deputy was caught on camera responding to a burglar alarm at a convenience store. He walked into the store through the glass door broken by burglars and came back out with armful of cigarette packs to load into his cruiser. HPD officers arriving on the scene caught him in the act and a subsequent review of store surveillance camera confirmed. It turned out that he had a criminal record prior to joining the Sheriff Office. The controversy led to a mandatory criminal background check on all Sheriff Office personnel. Lo and behold half of the Sheriff's Deputy force had positive criminal record ranging from domestic spousal assaults to a variety of other deeds including burglary. Up until that controversy I, and likely most Houstonians, was not aware that almost all of Sheriff Deputies worked for the Sheriff Office without pay. They were required to put in 17 hours a week as volunteers to keep the badges and the guns. With the Sheriff Deputy badges they had arrest power and worked private security for $25/hour where as private security guards without the badges were making $7/hour.

Back about Geurena, the news article pointed out a very good note. If Geurena was into drug trafficking, why did he bother to work a back breaking 12-hour shift job shoveling rocks in a mine for a mickey mouse pay of 41K a year? He would be much better off financially to focus on running his narc business, wouldn't he? If he needs a legit job as a front, it would be a whole lot more sense to open a bogus front business to launder dirty money.

Geurena does not have a squeaky clean record with the four incidents noted in the news report, but then he has not had any criminal mark on his record either. It does not mean that the possibility of him engaging in criminal activities is non-existent, but until he is proven guilty, by law, he is not a criminal. I know that is tough for LE to do their job, but that is the essence of our legal/political system, which was established to ensure that the USA was not to be morphed into a police state.

[dark1]

Yes the mil dos BCI checks on all recruits but 2 things mess that up. One is that people's juvenile records are steeled at 18 and the army can not check them and, what the gangs do now is get what they call "clean" members with no records to join and get combat experience than come home and do training and enforcement for the gangs. Like at fort Erwin earlier in the year where 12 gang members that were part of the ACR there stole 30aks a draganov and 3 rpks from the opfor warehouse to smuggle back to MS13 in LA. The us mil has states it is believed that there between 5 and 8k gang members in the armed forces right now.

[OC455]

Yes the mil dos BCI checks on all recruits but 2 things mess that up. One is that people's juvenile records are steeled at 18 and the army can not check them and, what the gangs do now is get what they call "clean" members with no records to join and get combat experience than come home and do training and enforcement for the gangs. Like at fort Erwin earlier in the year where 12 gang members that were part of the ACR there stole 30aks a draganov and 3 rpks from the opfor warehouse to smuggle back to MS13 in LA. The us mil has states it is believed that there between 5 and 8k gang members in the armed forces right now.

It was prevelent when I was in and it is a problem. I think that 5k-8k is a little on the conservative side.

[dark1]

It was prevelent when I was in and it is a problem. I think that 5k-8k is a little on the conservative side.

Yeah probably is on the conservative side but I am goo g on the last DOD report that was part of the last army anti gang class we were made to sit threw

[OC455]

I saw a bit of it when I was in the left coast. As far as what is being reported about this incident, it's hard to say what would have been appropriate. Especially depending on what intelligence the agency had gathered or what information that they had. Not saying what happened is right or wrong, just there is more to this than what is being reported.

I can also report from experience, the media doesn't always report everything 100% either correctly or not.

[mas360]

Thanks everyone for your input to the topic. It is informative to have different views on a sensitive subject matter.
My prayer is with Mrs. Geurena and her two young children. Hope they will be able to deal with the tragedy and the loss of their loved one.

[-k-]

The focus on the number of shots and veteran status is wrong.

The timeline from the video and quotes from his wife don't match up to "he rolled out of bed and got shot" theory. His wife woke him up, then he had to retrieve the rifle from the closet, then head towards the door. The video shows the siren being run and the officers announce before they entered, with plenty of time to hear it and put down the rifle. I don't pretend to know why he didn't, but the idea that he was shot without the opportunity to give up does not seem to match the facts that are known.

[EWP]

Did the officers ask him to put down his weapon?

No, they cam into his house and shot him for having his rifle in his hands and I seriously doubt he had it pointed at them with the safety on knowing his background.

IMO they could have walked up to the front door, knocked, and took this guy into custody without any use of any force.

The SWAT team acted like they were entering a TRAP house filled with drug dealers and crack heads instead of a mans home with his wife and kids.

Poor, Poor use of a SWAT team no matter the outcome!

[sfsmedic]

Sorry EWP I respect you and all but how do you know they didn't say drop the weapon without a response and then engaged? People we weren't there and to armchair quarterback something like this after the fact is absurd. An officer has a split second to make a decision in such a case. Drop it no go bang or they could be on the receiving end.

As to second guessing their tactics again we don't know what intel was given prior to. I am not saying whose right or wrong but being a LEO I will get defensive with this type of stuff. Way easier to say what should have happened afterwards then when it's happening especially when we make assumptions as to what was really going on and we don't really know the whole story (either side of it).

[Paulo_Santos]

Those are very good points you highlighted. Geurena does not seem to be squeaky clean at all. The questions, which this news article has not addressed, include:

1) Why no charge was filed in the April and Oct 2009 incidents ? why prosecutor declined to press charge in traffic stop arrests on Jan 2009 and again on Sept 15, 2009 ? Four incidents an no charge/arrest taking place? there has to be a reason.
2) No drug was found in this raid and no arrest has taken place since Geurena was killed. Why and how the search warrant was initiated and approved to begin with?
3) What are the criteria to constitute a search warrant ? was a judge involved in reviewing and signing a search warrant ?
4) Was there sufficient probable cause to initiate a search warrant?

At this point it is not proper to determine whether the Pima Sheriff Office committed police brutality in conjunction with incompetence or Geurena was a Marine gone bad as alleged. LE has a tough job keeping the drug trade from exploding in the US as it does in Mexico, but at the same time inadequate command and control of militarized police force/tactic would lead to unfortunate bloodshed as in this case.

The positive note I see in this case so far is the fact that Geurena's AR-15 was unfired and safety was on. It indicates the SWAT team was honest. They could have easily switched the safety off and fired a shot to turn the entire incident 180 degrees around in their favor.

Back to the issue about high-powered rifles and bullet proof vest ownership. I read in other news articles about this case and it was reported that Geurena was wearing a boxer short (he was sleeping after a 12-hour shift at the mine) when he was gunned down. Pima County Sheriff Office Criminal Investigation Division characterizes Geurena as drug trafficker based on his ownership of high-powered rifles and bullet proof vest, which are perfectly legal items. That is the part I find alarming and am very surprised to hear it from a police captain. That means all of us here on this forum along with millions of other American gun owners are all viewed as potential drug runners ! I hope that is just a personal and highly prejudiced opinion of a police captain and not the official/unofficial sentiment and training of LE personnel in general.

I was in Narcotics Strike Force several years ago so I'll try to answer some of your questions/concerns.

Generally an investigation takes months from start to finish. There are several suspects and the raids are all performed at EXACTLY the same time. The reason for this is so that they don't tip each other off. Search warrants for these types of cases are pretty hard to get, so if the warrants are obtained,there is no doubt in the judges mind that the people are involved. Not every person on the search warrant is the main guy. Some are the actual dealers, some are the stash house, and others are involved somehow. I can't go into everything, but we've had raids where we had over 10 houses to hit at the same time.

The County Sheriff didn't characterize the marine as a drug traffiker based on his ownership of a high-powered rifle and a bullet proof vest. The marine was just more dangerous because he was involved in some drug trafficking AND owned a high-powered rifle and bullet proof vest. Narcotics Units go after guys involved with NARCOTICS, not after the law-abiding citizen who owns a rifle and bullet proof vest. Trust me.

I watched the video of the raid and you could clearly hear the sirens. The wife indicated that she never heard sirens. Get real.

Tht's the price you pay for getting involved with drug trafficking. There are several reasons why the prosecutors didn't charge him. He could have worked a deal with the prosecutors, or he could have given them some information, or many other things.

[Team Helotes]

Video link.

http://gawker.com/Jose-guerena-ortiz

[tantrik77]

The focus on the number of shots is wrong.



Why? I think the fact that they fired over 70 rounds is absolutely ridiculous. Where is the trigger control? Not a single round came back at them, yet they emptied their magazines. That is poor training.




Tht's the price you pay for getting involved with drug trafficking.

I don't really think that's a fair or acceptable statement. Getting gunned down in your own home in front of your wife and kids is not justice, no matter how guilty you are. That is not a price you pay.

This is an extremely difficult case to tackle. I think James said it best, there are no winners in this situation. I do agree with you Paulo on the wife not hearing the siren though. That is bs. If she was in the kitchen making breakfast for the kids, she most definitely heard the siren. When I can hear sirens 10 blocks away, I have a have a hard time believing you didn't hear it when the car is parked in your driveway.

As far as the raid goes, it was a very poorly organized debacle. It was not carried out with precision or tactical prowess. I have watched the video many times over, and it assuredly displays a lack of training and competence on the officers' part. Watch from 59 seconds forward. When the shooting starts, someone who should not be carrying a weapon runs across the doorway, in the line of potential return fire, walks up behind his buddy on the left, and blasts off an entire magazine while holding the pistol with one hand. Honestly, I don't care who you are, that is pathetic. Could you fail two of the four cardinal rules of gun safety any worse? When the shooting starts, you don't run into the situation and stick your gun through the doorway just so you can get some shots off. Neighbors are very close by and innocent bystanders are everywhere.

[OC455]

Just watched the video....aside from the shots fired, a siren was sounded, an announcement was made in both English and Spanish, Police-search warrant-open the door-was said several times before they hit the door.

No way the wife didn't hear any of that going...there's more to this.

[Paulo_Santos]

I don't really think that's a fair or acceptable statement. Getting gunned down in your own home in front of your wife and kids is not justice, no matter how guilty you are. That is not a price you pay.

The guy put his whole family in danger by the decisions he made. He's lucky no one else in his family was killed. I'm pretty sure his wife knew what was going on as most of them do. My very first drug dealer we locked up used to drive around with his 4 year old son when he used to make deliveries because he thought by having his son with him, he wouldn't look as suspicious. We all wanted to kick his ass when we arrested him. So I have no love for them.

[-k-]

Why? I think the fact that they fired over 70 rounds is absolutely ridiculous...
Shoots are good or bad based on the justification for use of force, not the total number of rounds fired.

The number of shots divided by the number of shooters would be a reasonable number to anyone I know who has been shot at/had a gun pointed at them and thought they would be shot at.

[SAMPSON]

Did the officers ask him to put down his weapon?

No, they cam into his house and shot him for having his rifle in his hands and I seriously doubt he had it pointed at them with the safety on knowing his background.

IMO they could have walked up to the front door, knocked, and took this guy into custody without any use of any force.

The SWAT team acted like they were entering a TRAP house filled with drug dealers and crack heads instead of a mans home with his wife and kids.

Poor, Poor use of a SWAT team no matter the outcome!

I have to admit I cant agree with this info. I have assisted with a swat team for training purposes. I was given an 8 second window of theoretical response time (which is an eternity when 8 swat officers are making entry). for our purposes the idea was for the team to get practice with entry dynamics, hence the 8 second "response time" swat officers do not wear black evil ninja costumes, their gear and body armor says SHERIFF or POLICE in big easy for a kindergartner to read block letters in a high vis color. and then when they enter the door they usually yell very loudly "POLICE SEARCH WARRANT!!!" as loudly as possible, then hit the door with a breaching tool, and toss in a flash bang (or at least for me they did) so even if they didnt have a trap house this guy should have had no question that these were cops coming into his house. and when there is a search warrant issued by a district court judge who has reviewed the Probable cause supplied by the police to the prosecutor and reviewed by the prosecutor before wasting the judges time (IE the judges don't get stuff that the prosecutor wont back up) It is usually not an illegal search. So fighting back is definitely considered resisting arrest.

here is the link to the video I found
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XP0f00_JMak

ok here is my play by play,
7 seconds siren starts
14 seconds siren ends
14 seconds shouting inside the house heard
17 seconds flash bang deployed (note the radio traffic "bang bang bang bang")
33 seconds shouting stops
34 seconds team in video makes entry
40.5 seconds shooting starts
48 seconds shooting stops
50 seconds lone shot fired unknown reason
54 seconds camera off.

now this is something to note. at 14 - 33 there is indistinguishable shouting that does not appear to be coming from the team, is there a rear entry team on this house? I did not see a flash bang deployed by these guys but there was a FB go off at 17 seconds, possibly from a second primary entry team (speculation). This team is not making entry until 34 seconds, thats a long time, and these guys have a breaching tool and ballistics shield, this appears to be a designated barricade team (my best guess). so the entry team would have been coming from a separate entrance(speculation). I could hear shouting all the way up to 33 seconds, before this team makes entry. It sounds like the kind of tone involved with shouting commands during an entry to me. "get on the ground" "sheriffs office" "put your hands up" and the like, but I cant tell what they are saying. but it does not appear to be coming from the team we are watching, they appear to be staying quiet, and listening.

I am guessing and if anyone knows this for sure please speak up but this appears to be a secondary team and also appears too small to be the whole team.

after seeing this video (and realizing that there is no way this is the primary entry team ) I am having a lot of trouble understanding how this guy (especially having been in the military) would NOT have known that this was the police. (also notice that every member of this team had big yellow POLICE letters on the backs of their vests.)

Also the comments made by the you-tubers are atrocious

[mas360]

Is flash bang a standard procedure in all entries? or is it only in certain raids and pre-determined of its deployment? if there are children in the house and in the room, does flash bang have enough concussion force to cause permanent injuries? particularly to children hearing functions?

What if intelligence produces wrong address? it did happen here in Houston couple of times I can remember. The news media never followed up, so, I don't know what the end results were?

I remember one particular story taking place in Oklahoma, which was posted on NRA's Riflemen magazine back in the mid 80's, where a gun owner's ex-wife tipped the BATF that her ex had illegal fully-auto weapons. BATF SWAT came, kicked down his door, cut open his gun safe with a torch, ransacked his home, found nothing illegal and left with a note on the door saying "BATF visited you". No compensation or even an apology was issued. The NRA assisted the victim in this case to pursue litigation but the ending, as usual, was never mentioned.

Another incident I read about on Boating magazine back in the mid 80's involving a college professor in Florida who was in international water off Florida coast when three fast boats with DEA agents raided him. They could not find anything illegal on his boat. They towed him and his boat back to port and confiscated his boat for further thorough search. Couple of weeks later when he finally was allowed to come in to take custody of his boat, he found it was ripped wide open from end to end. Next he was sent on a runaround when he tried to file complaint and property damage compensation. His boat insurance policy would not pay for the damage on ground that he could not file burglary or vandalism claim. He eventually had to drop the case as he found out attorney bills and legal fees were more than the cost of a new boat.

[Fred_G]

" swat officers do not wear black evil ninja costumes, their gear and body armor says SHERIFF or POLICE in big easy for a kindergartner to read block letters in a high vis color. and then when they enter the door they usually yell very loudly "POLICE SEARCH WARRANT!!!" as loudly as possible"

Hmm. Again, I don't think we are getting the whole story on this incident. But:

"A stun grenade, also known as a flash grenade or a flashbang, is a non-lethal weapon. The first devices like this were created in the 1960s at the order of the British Special Air Service as an incapacitant.

These grenades are used to temporally neutralize the combat effectiveness of enemies by usually disorienting their senses. The flash of light momentarily activates all light sensitive cells in the eye, making vision impossible for approximately five seconds until the eye restores itself to its normal, unstimulated state. The loud blast produced by the grenade adds to its incapacitating properties by disturbing the fluid in the ear."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stun_grenade

If you use one of those, how would you expect someone to read the POLICE writing, or obey verbal orders? Just to me, sounds like some good evidence against the police in court. You use a device that deafens, blinds and confuses someone, then expect them to comply with verbal orders. Maybe one day we will find out all that went on in this.

[Paulo_Santos]

" swat officers do not wear black evil ninja costumes, their gear and body armor says SHERIFF or POLICE in big easy for a kindergartner to read block letters in a high vis color. and then when they enter the door they usually yell very loudly "POLICE SEARCH WARRANT!!!" as loudly as possible"Hmm. Again, I don't think we are getting the whole story on this incident. But:"A stun grenade, also known as a flash grenade or a flashbang, is a non-lethal weapon. The first devices like this were created in the 1960s at the order of the British Special Air Service as an incapacitant.These grenades are used to temporally neutralize the combat effectiveness of enemies by usually disorienting their senses. The flash of light momentarily activates all light sensitive cells in the eye, making vision impossible for approximately five seconds until the eye restores itself to its normal, unstimulated state. The loud blast produced by the grenade adds to its incapacitating properties by disturbing the fluid in the ear."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stun_grenadeIf you use one of those, how would you expect someone to read the POLICE writing, or obey verbal orders? Just to me, sounds like some good evidence against the police in court. You use a device that deafens, blinds and confuses someone, then expect them to comply with verbal orders. Maybe one day we will find out all that went on in this.Well before they even threw the stun grenade inside, they had their sirens on and were already yelling police, or whatever they were yelling before they made the entry. All he had to do was put down the AR and put his hands in the air. That simple.

[mas360]

Well before they even threw the stun grenade inside, they had their sirens on and were already yelling police, or whatever they were yelling before they made the entry. All he had to do was put down the AR and put his hands in the air. That simple.

According to Sampson's time info, a total of 10 seconds elapsed from time the siren started to the time the flash bang went off. That is a very short time for a person who just got awakened from his sleep after a 10 hours shift work to get properly oriented to make a sound judgment whether it is a legit police raid or a fake one. I doubt an average person would be able to identify the raiders being real cops or fake ones in a matter of ten seconds. Once flash bang went off, he was disoriented and stunned out of his mind to react.

Yes, it looked simple for the guys from the grenade lobbing end, not the guy at the receiving end.

It is not fair to make judgment on this case at this point. LE has a tough task to keep drug trafficking under control and to accomplish that task without stepping over boundary. There are not enough information and details being made public to say who is at fault or even if Geurena is guilty or innocent. That has to be left to the court to bring it out and make judgment on. I therefore disagree with your previous statement "The guy put his whole family in danger by the decisions he made. He's lucky no one else in his family was killed." That in effect is a pre-judgment of his guilt. It does not comply with our legal system culture where one is INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.

Three questionable facts linger in my mind:

a) While it is justifiable for the SWAT team to open fire upon being greeted by an armed suspect, the 22 bullet holes on Geurena body is not. It is either a reflection of inadequate fire discipline or the judge-jury-executioner mindset. In the worst case it was likely a combination of both.

b) Geurena worked a labor back breaking job for a 41K a year income. If he was into drug dealing, which had to be a lot more profitable than 41K a year, why did he bother to work that honest job? How could he tend to the alleged lucrative drug trafficking task if his time and energy were already spent on that rock shovel job? could he simply drop the shovel and took off from the mine job to do "enforcer job" as alleged by the County Sheriff Office every time his gang boss called? It simply does not add up.

c) The picture of Geurena house looks very nice. I don't know what the fair market value is for that house, but it appears to be more than what a person with 41K a year income, wife not working and having two kids, would be able to secure a bank loan with the common 5% down payment. Unless Geurena family can come up with financial statements to justify the house purchase such as an inheritance or a big saving from his military service to put down a huge down payment or a special federal guaranteed mortgage loan for vets...etc...where does money come from? that is unless it is a rental house.

[Fred_G]

Unless new information comes out on this, I think I am out of this conversation. No offense to anyone here. The last thing I want to say is I just wonder if using SWAT to serve a warrant is not a bit overkill. Peace. :a35:

[Paulo_Santos]

According to Sampson's time info, a total of 10 seconds elapsed from time the siren started to the time the flash bang went off. That is a very short time for a person who just got awakened from his sleep after a 10 hours shift work to get properly oriented to make a sound judgment whether it is a legit police raid or a fake one. I doubt an average person would be able to identify the raiders being real cops or fake ones in a matter of ten seconds. Once flash bang went off, he was disoriented and stunned out of his mind to react. Yes, it looked simple for the guys from the grenade lobbing end, not the guy at the receiving end. It is not fair to make judgment on this case at this point. LE has a tough task to keep drug trafficking under control and to accomplish that task without stepping over boundary. There are not enough information and details being made public to say who is at fault or even if Geurena is guilty or innocent. That has to be left to the court to bring it out and make judgment on. I therefore disagree with your previous statement "The guy put his whole family in danger by the decisions he made. He's lucky no one else in his family was killed." That in effect is a pre-judgment of his guilt. It does not comply with our legal system culture where one is INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. Three questionable facts linger in my mind:a) While it is justifiable for the SWAT team to open fire upon being greeted by an armed suspect, the 22 bullet holes on Geurena body is not. It is either a reflection of inadequate fire discipline or the judge-jury-executioner mindset. In the worst case it was likely a combination of both.b) Geurena worked a labor back breaking job for a 41K a year income. If he was into drug dealing, which had to be a lot more profitable than 41K a year, why did he bother to work that honest job? How could he tend to the alleged lucrative drug trafficking task if his time and energy were already spent on that rock shovel job? could he simply drop the shovel and took off from the mine job to do "enforcer job" as alleged by the County Sheriff Office every time his gang boss called? It simply does not add up. c) The picture of Geurena house looks very nice. I don't know what the fair market value is for that house, but it appears to be more than what a person with 41K a year income, wife not working and having two kids, would be able to secure a bank loan with the common 5% down payment. Unless Geurena family can come up with financial statements to justify the house purchase such as an inheritance or a big saving from his military service to put down a huge down payment or a special federal guaranteed mortgage loan for vets...etc...where does money come from? that is unless it is a rental house.Cops don't arrest people they think are innocent. We only arrest people we know are guilty. During raids is no different. If you want to think that he is innocent until proven guilty, that's your choice.Not all drug dealers or guys involved with drugs make a lot of money. And even the ones that do make a lot of money blow it all on stupid stuff. They get greedy.

[Paulo_Santos]

Unless new information comes out on this, I think I am out of this conversation. No offense to anyone here. The last thing I want to say is I just wonder if using SWAT to serve a warrant is not a bit overkill. Peace. :a35:Who do you want to serve warrants? Regular cops with no or very little training in doing entries, armed with handguns, or guys who know what they are doing? If you think these guys did a bad job, you should see how bad regular cops would do.

[tantrik77]

Cops don't arrest people they think are innocent. We only arrest people we know are guilty. During raids is no different. If you want to think that he is innocent until proven guilty, that's your choice.Not all drug dealers or guys involved with drugs make a lot of money. And even the ones that do make a lot of money blow it all on stupid stuff. They get greedy.

Well there's an ignorant statement if I've ever read one...

[Fred_G]

Who do you want to serve warrants? Regular cops with no or very little training in doing entries, armed with handguns, or guys who know what they are doing? If you think these guys did a bad job, you should see how bad regular cops would do.

I am trying to back out of this conversation so I don't make the mods mad. Why not a knock on the door, or a call from a cell phone. Kick the door in and toss in a flash bang. Welcome to the US.

Again, I don't think we have all the facts. I don't fault the Swat team. I fault the person who sent them.

[Paulo_Santos]

Well there's an ignorant statement if I've ever read one...Law Enforcement's job is to enforce the laws. If we see a crime being committed and we catch the bad guy in the act, are we supposed to think that they are innocent until proven guilty? Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. We have to prove things beyond a reasonable doubt in court.I've been a cop for 11 years and I haven't lost a trial or a case. I'm not bragging or tooting my own horn. I don't arrest people or ticket people unless I know they are guilty.

[Paulo_Santos]

I am trying to back out of this conversation so I don't make the mods mad. Why not a knock on the door, or a call from a cell phone. Kick the door in and toss in a flash bang. Welcome to the US.Again, I don't think we have all the facts. I don't fault the Swat team. I fault the person who sent them.I don't think the mods have a problem with anyone having intelligent and civil conversations. They only care when threads start getting stupid.Drug raids are conducted the way they are for a reason. I wish I could tell you guys how raids and how narcotics investigations, in general, are conducted because I think most of you guys would totally understand why we have to do things a certain way.

[SAMPSON]

Why not a knock on the door, or a call from a cell phone.

"Excuse me mister illicit drug dealer man could you please come outside and grand us permission to serve this search warrant on your property please.....what's that.... Well, do you kiss your mother with that mouth? Oh no please dont start flushing the toilet."

That's why!

and

Again, I don't think we have all the facts. I don't fault the Swat team. I fault the person who sent them.
I agree with you there entirely. we dont know all the other extenuating circumstances in this case.

[RGraff]

Well there's an ignorant statement if I've ever read one...

And how, exactly, is it that you would handle an arrest? Arrest the ones you think might be guilty? Arrest those who you think are more guilty than not? Or maybe just arrest the guys whose guilt you're pretty sure of?

Please correct me if I'm wrong Paulo but I believe what he was trying to explain is the following: The guys on the street have to KNOW, after exhaustive investigation and the establishment of probable cause that, without a doubt, the guy/gal who's liberty's we're about to take away is ABSOLUTELY guilty of the crime we're investigating. If I'm not sure...I don't arrest. I continue to investigate until I am SURE that the subject is either guilty or not guilty of the crime and take appropriate action, be it arrest, citation, have a judge issue a warrant, raid with SWAT, drop the investigation or whatever. Later, the courts (attorney's, judge and/or jury) will determine the suspect's guilt, whether or not Paulo did his job correctly and what, if any, punishment is warranted based on the law of the land.

I'm guessing you can call Paulo a lot of things but ignorant is not one of them.

[Jamesb74]

Just so everyone knows this thread is being watched by the mods. It is borderline right now. Let's keep the rhetoric down and the info flowing.

Less noise more signal!

[Paulo_Santos]

And how, exactly, is it that you would handle an arrest? Arrest the ones you think might be guilty? Arrest those who you think are more guilty than not? Or maybe just arrest the guys whose guilt you're pretty sure of? Please correct me if I'm wrong Paulo but I believe what he was trying to explain is the following: The guys on the street have to KNOW, after exhaustive investigation and the establishment of probable cause that, without a doubt, the guy/gal who's liberty's we're about to take away is ABSOLUTELY guilty of the crime we're investigating. If I'm not sure...I don't arrest. I continue to investigate until I am SURE that the subject is either guilty or not guilty of the crime and take appropriate action, be it arrest, citation, have a judge issue a warrant, raid with SWAT, drop the investigation or whatever. Later, the courts (attorney's, judge and/or jury) will determine the suspect's guilt, whether or not Paulo did his job correctly and what, if any, punishment is warranted based on the law of the land.I'm guessing you can call Paulo a lot of things but ignorant is not one of them. Couldn't have said better myself. Thanks for the back-up.

[mas360]

Cops don't arrest people they think are innocent. We only arrest people we know are guilty. During raids is no different. If you want to think that he is innocent until proven guilty, that's your choice.Not all drug dealers or guys involved with drugs make a lot of money. And even the ones that do make a lot of money blow it all on stupid stuff. They get greedy.

Mr. Santos,
When you conduct an arrest/search warrant, you have reasonable doubt of suspect guilt but you definitely have neither the legal power nor the function to conclude the suspect is guilty based on your personal feeling/emotion unless you actually saw with your own eyes, beyond any reasonable doubt, suspect committing a crime. That is the very reason of the Miranda rights and suspect has the right to remain silent and the right to have an attorney at his side when he makes statement to police. The legal system does not bless LE with the power to decide on the guilt of suspect. Police may file inaccurate reports as well as lies to intimidate suspect and to solve the case as quickly as possible without regard to fairness and proper procedure. Policemen are not saints and are not exempted from personal prejudices and biases and thus the American legal system is designed to ensure that LE abuses are minimized.

Please read the incident below and see for yourself why police is not allowed to be judge/jury/executioner. In this particular case, four months were spent on surveillance prior to kicking down door and lobbed flash bang into a house, which turned out to be the wrong address. As thorough as they were with preparation they still made mistake. Fortunately in this particular instance an innocent citizen did not die at the hands of police brutality like Geurena.

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Former Paterson man testifies about mistaken drug raid on his family
Wednesday October 12, 2011, 6:37 PM
BY JOHN PETRICK
STAFF WRITER
The Record
Pages: 1 2 (http://www.northjersey.com/news/crime_courts/Former_Paterson_man_testifies_about_mistaken_drug_ raid_on_his_family.html?c=y&page=2) > (http://www.northjersey.com/news/crime_courts/Former_Paterson_man_testifies_about_mistaken_drug_ raid_on_his_family.html?c=y&page=2) display on one page (http://www.northjersey.com/news/crime_courts/Former_Paterson_man_testifies_about_mistaken_drug_ raid_on_his_family.html?page=all) | Print | E-mail
An 18-year-old former Paterson (http://www.northjersey.com/paterson) man testified in Superior Court on Wednesday about the day officers in black fatigues, with assault rifles blazing, raided his family’s apartment and held them for hours before realizing it was a mistake.
http://media.northjersey.com/images/300*232/101211_colon_dngrm.jpg (http://media.northjersey.com/images/101211_colon_dngrm.jpg) DON SMITH/STAFF PHOTOGRAPHER
Plaintiff Miguel Colon. Miguel and his mother Lisette are suing police who they say mistakenly broke into their apartment and held them at gunpoint.


“There was a loud bang,” testified Miguel Colon, who was 14 at the time of the incident. “My mother screamed and dropped the phone.”
“There were just a whole bunch of people in black running toward me with guns,” he added.
What's next:


Both sides have rested their cases, and attorneys are scheduled to give their closing statements today.



After Judge Anthony J. Graziano instructs the jury about the legal issues it must consider, it will begin its deliberations.




Colon, now of Garfield (http://www.northjersey.com/garfield), lived at 108 Mill St. on Sept. 7, 2007. That’s the day about 40 narcotics and emergency response team officers executed search warrants at numerous locations during a major drug raid following four months of undercover surveillance. The Colons’ apartment was not among the approved targets in the “no-knock” search warrants obtained by authorities, who mistook a door leading to the family’s apartment for what they thought was a door to the building’s basement.

Lisette Colon, with sons Miguel and Nelson Colon, are suing Paterson (http://www.northjersey.com/paterson) Police Detective William Palomino in a civil rights action, claiming unlawful entry and false arrest. The case, being tried before a jury and Superior Court Judge Anthony J. Graziano in Paterson, seeks unspecified damages. Attorney Shannon Garrahan of River Edge is arguing on behalf of the Colons that Palomino, the case’s lead investigator, mistakenly pointed to the wrong door when directing emergency response team officers where to enter.

Palomino, who also testified Wednesday, acknowledged he mistook which door led to the basement — the intended target of one of the search warrants — in directing the team. Palomino’s attorney, James Frega of North Haledon (http://www.northjersey.com/northhaledon), pointed out to jurors through his questioning that at no time did his client ever point a gun at the Colons or even enter the apartment. Palomino said he pointed to the door and immediately went to another nearby address on Oliver Street to assist in a separate coordinated raid, so he never even saw the raiding officers enter.

Officers followed proper procedure when coming upon untargeted people during the execution of a no-knock warrant, which entitles forced entry if necessary, Palomino said.

Miguel Colon testified that he, his little brother and a friend were in one room of the apartment, and that his mother was in the kitchen, talking on the phone, when “more than five” men dressed all in black and not bearing any police identification burst in.
“I asked: “Who are you?’ The response I got was: ‘Shut up and get on the floor,’Ÿ” Colon testified.
They then ordered everyone to the floor at gunpoint and ransacked the apartment, overturning beds and going through the laundry as his brother cried and his mother started having a “panic attack,” Colon said.

“She couldn’t breathe,” he testified. “I told them, ‘My mom needs to breathe. She needs medication.’ They told me to shut up.”

When she started choking, he said, he defied them and got up to get the medicine anyway, but they pushed him back down. Eventually, they went with his mother to get the medicine but had their guns drawn the whole time, he said. The family was held for about two hours before being freed.
“It was traumatizing,” Miguel Colon said. “It keeps you always, always like — it might happen again. Even where we live now, I’m always looking outside. I didn’t used to be like that.”
Palomino testified that, as part of the suspected cocaine operation being monitored at the time, an elaborate series of tunnels connected the garage of 108 Mill St. to the basement and from there to 106 Mill St. so that dealers could escape. Surveillance cameras were also set up on nearby rooftops and trees by the suspects.
He said that there was no way they could explain to the Colons what was unfolding, whether the officers had expected them to be in the middle of it or not.
“It would have compromised the whole investigation,” he testified. “It would have jeopardized not only my life, but the lives of my fellow officers.”
He said the Colons were detained the way anyone would have been, had officers unexpectedly come across them during such a raid.

[OC455]

Again, there is more than what is being reported in the NEWS/ MEDIA. I say that because the media doesn't always get it right or report everything correctly. Also, the one ultimately responsible is the Judge that issued the warrant. And for the Judge to issue a warrant, there has to be more than just heresay. There has to have been a lengthy, in-depth investigation with plenty of evidence to issue that warrant.

[OC455]

mas360,

Reasonable doubt is the standard of proof that is used in court, beyond a shadow of the doubt, or similar term. Beyond a reasonable doubt is what is needed to determine innocence or guilt of an accused person. Again, this is used during trial, not during a criminal investigation.

Reasonable suspicion is a term used to describe if a person has been or will be involved in a crime based on specific facts and circumstances, this is what usually starts the criminal investigation.

Probable cause is a set of facts or circumstance or evidence, that leads a reasonable person to believe that a crime has been committed, is being committed or will be committed. Probable cause is what LEO's use to make arrests and enforce the laws.

[Paulo_Santos]

Mas360, mistakes happen. That is unfortunate in our line of work. Those people will get paid and rightfully so. It is human error.I think I already addressed the part about when I said that we only arrest people we think or know that are guilty. You are thinking too much into it. Obviously, on view crimes/violations are different from crimes/violations that we do not witness, but the same rules apply. If there is a doubt that someone didn't commit a crime or violation, we don't charge them. We can always get all of their information and continue the investigation, and charge them at a later time if we determine they have committed a crime.

[mas360]

As a law abiding citizen I do not see it as "thinking too much into it" when I see a case like Geurena occurred.

On one hand I am thankful to the men and women of LE for the job they do to keep drug trafficking under control. I fully understand it is a tough and hazardous job and if cops rather spend their time at Dunkin Donnuts our country would be taken over the same way it is unfolding next door in Mexico. I readily acknowledge that overall the LE establishment is still functional and effectively serving the public.

But on the other hand, if you have not seen this video, perhaps you want to look at it and understand why many law-abiding citizens cannot help viewing LE with skepticism?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-taU9d26wT4&feature=player_embedded


The post-Katrina shooting of unarmed civilians on Danziger bridge followed by cover-ups by other cops to protect their "brothers" is another example of how some LE personnel violated the very law they were supposed to uphold. In this particular case they went as far as falsely arresting a witness and charged him with "attempted murder of police officers" after they executed the victim with a shotgun blast in the back. In this case you certainly cannot argue that not all details are not yet revealed or examined or "there are two sides to a story". The court found the police trigger man and his three accomplices guilty.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/06/us-katrina-trial-louisiana-idUSTRE77503U20110806 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/06/us-katrina-trial-louisiana-idUSTRE77503U20110806)

The shooting above was not an isolated aberration during post-Katrina days, here is another case where a police officer shot an unarmed civilian from a rooftop claiming "fear for his life". A good Samaritan motorist, who drove the severely wounded victim and his two siblings to a make shift police station for help, were instead beaten and chased off on foot by policemen there. The car with the bleeding victim inside were set on fire by two policemen, who were laughing while engaging in the arson act. These policemen subsequently filed a falsified official report. Numerous other officers witnessed the act and lied about it on behalf of their "brothers". They did not speak the truth until federal law enforcement and Justice Department investigators got involved. They confessed not out of respect for justice and the law they sworn to defend but simply in exchange for immunity and their paychecks.

http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2010/11/officer_fired_at_unarmed_fleei.html

The two murders above were not the only ones taking place in post-Katrina days by LE. There were other shootings of civilians during and after Katrina, which you can easily google for information.


Today our economy is facing a 15 trillion dollars national debt, a rampant unemployment, an imminent large scale discharge of combat vets coming home from the two winding down wars and most likely facing virtual unemployment, the law and order issue is going to be more critical in the near future.

http://www.infowars.com/detention-camp-order-follows-preparations-for-civil-unrest

The hand writing is on the wall and I am not the only law-abiding citizen who fears rogue police more than common criminals simply due to their "license to kill" in conjunction with the police "code of silence" subculture. Post-Katrina police brutalities were a precursor of what likely to take place when that economic melt-down arrives. When govt fears its constituents, we have democracy. When constituents fear their govt and its police force, we have totalitarianism and dictatorship.

[mas360]

mas360,

Reasonable doubt is the standard of proof that is used in court, beyond a shadow of the doubt, or similar term. Beyond a reasonable doubt is what is needed to determine innocence or guilt of an accused person. Again, this is used during trial, not during a criminal investigation.

Reasonable suspicion is a term used to describe if a person has been or will be involved in a crime based on specific facts and circumstances, this is what usually starts the criminal investigation.

Probable cause is a set of facts or circumstance or evidence, that leads a reasonable person to believe that a crime has been committed, is being committed or will be committed. Probable cause is what LEO's use to make arrests and enforce the laws.

OC,
Thanks for the definitions. That's very educational.

[Paulo_Santos]

As a law abiding citizen I do not see it as "thinking too much into it" when I see a case like Geurena occurred. On one hand I am thankful to the men and women of LE for the job they do to keep drug trafficking under control. I fully understand it is a tough and hazardous job and if cops rather spend their time at Dunkin Donnuts our country would be taken over the same way it is unfolding next door in Mexico. I readily acknowledge that overall the LE establishment is still functional and effectively serving the public. But on the other hand, if you have not seen this video, perhaps you want to look at it and understand why many law-abiding citizens cannot help viewing LE with skepticism? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-taU9d26wT4&feature=player_embeddedThe post-Katrina shooting of unarmed civilians on Danziger bridge followed by cover-ups by other cops to protect their "brothers" is another example of how some LE personnel violated the very law they were supposed to uphold. In this particular case they went as far as falsely arresting a witness and charged him with "attempted murder of police officers" after they executed the victim with a shotgun blast in the back. In this case you certainly cannot argue that not all details are not yet revealed or examined or "there are two sides to a story". The court found the police trigger man and his three accomplices guilty. http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/06/us-katrina-trial-louisiana-idUSTRE77503U20110806The shooting above was not an isolated aberration during post-Katrina days, here is another case where a police officer shot an unarmed civilian from a rooftop claiming "fear for his life". A good Samaritan motorist, who drove the severely wounded victim and his two siblings to a make shift police station for help, were instead beaten and chased off on foot by policemen there. The car with the bleeding victim inside were set on fire by two policemen, who were laughing while engaging in the arson act. These policemen subsequently filed a falsified official report. Numerous other officers witnessed the act and lied about it on behalf of their "brothers". They did not speak the truth until federal law enforcement and Justice Department investigators got involved. They confessed not out of respect for justice and the law they sworn to defend but simply in exchange for immunity and their paychecks. http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2010/11/officer_fired_at_unarmed_fleei.htmlThe two murders above were not the only ones taking place in post-Katrina days by LE. There were other shootings of civilians during and after Katrina, which you can easily google for information. Today our economy is facing a 15 trillion dollars national debt, a rampant unemployment, an imminent large scale discharge of combat vets coming home from the two winding down wars and most likely facing virtual unemployment, the law and order issue is going to be more critical in the near future. http://www.infowars.com/detention-camp-order-follows-preparations-for-civil-unrest The hand writing is on the wall and I am not the only law-abiding citizen who fears rogue police more than common criminals simply due to their "license to kill" in conjunction with the police "code of silence" subculture. Post-Katrina police brutalities were a precursor of what likely to take place when that economic melt-down arrives. When govt fears its constituents, we have democracy. When constituents fear their govt and its police force, we have totalitarianism and dictatorship.Katrina is an example of what not to do in a catastrophe. A lot of cops began to act like thugs and normal everyday good citizens acted the same. I think the only smart people were the ones that left. I can't say that we won't have another Catrina incident, but I don't sit here and dwell on it or become so worried about it as some people on the Internet do (not saying you are one of them).You said that a lot of law abiding citizens are becoming skeptical about LE, I can run around and say the same thing about the so called law abiding gun owners who have been murdering cops all year. So should we turn around and think that all gun owners are just a bunch of loose cannons and are out to kill us? Sorry, but I don't want to live my life going on calls, thinking that everyone is trying to kill me because I'm a cop. So if you want to be skeptical of LE over Catrina or this shooting, there is nothing I can do to change your mind. All I can tell you is that us cops are citizens also and we have the same concerns about some of the rediculous laws that get passed and when we see cops do stupid ****, we are more critical than anyone because we don't want to get lumped in with them. In this incident with the SWAT team, I'm not going to kill them for what they did because we dont have all of the info. And from what the info we have and from what I know about raids, it is on the Marine.

[mas360]

I am sorry you misread my post. I stated clearly " I readily acknowledge that overall the LE establishment is still functional and effectively serving the public."

As a cop you worry who is the wacko citizen gun owner in the crowd about to open fire on you just as much as we, the citizens, worry about who is the thuggish cop about to use the power entrusted in him by the system to abuse us. It does not mean each and every law-abiding gun owner (I am not counting gang member/criminal/mentally unstable individuals as law abiding gun owners) is a cop killer just as much as it does not mean each and every officer is a thug by the deeds of a few bad apples.

However, the big differences here are:

a) Wacko gun-owner citizen who kills cop does not enjoy the "camaraderie" by other law abiding gun-owners let alone to the extent of lies and document falsification to cover-up criminal act of cop killer. Law abiding gun owners (those without criminal records) are generally pro-LE and pro-law-and-order.

b) The tremendously overwhelming superior firepower of the thuggish cop/cops relative to the victim/victims.

c) When a citizen is murdered by police, his/her family has to fight against a system, which is staffed with an army of attorneys paid for by American taxpayers, to seek justice. You know just as well just as I do that attorney does not take a case unless client is willing to pay him $200/hour or the case has 95% certainty of winning big bucks from defendant who has resources to pay the court judgment. When a cop is murdered by a wacko gun owner, that criminal is prosecuted by the system, which is staffed with salaried attorneys paid for by the American taxpayers.

d) Most important of all, there has been a lack within the legal/political/administrative system to weed out as well as to prevent police brutality. No citizen review committees are in place to oversee police professional conduct. The PD Internal Affair Office is more or less window dressing function. It is embedded within the PD itself and needless to say it cannot be impartial let alone of being effective. Even the legal system is not impartial. A policeman committing same crime as a civilian counterpart DOES NOT face same severity in sentence. Those cases in Katrina and the sentences handed down were prime examples. The Rodney King beating and the first trial where all culprits were acquitted despite of clear cut video evidence was another fine example. It took a riot and many lost lives for justice to be served in the King case. That speaks volume for the bias in favor of the police within the judicial system itself.

[Paulo_Santos]

Actually officers get harsher penalties when they are found guilty of a crime. That is a known fact. When cops mess up, they are made examples of. I don't care if you believe me or not, but it is the truth.When cops get charged with a crime, they have access to the same lawyers everyone else does. We don't get any special Johnny Cochran super lawyers.If you think that we get any special treatment from our IA Officers, you have never been part of an IA.

[mas360]

Actually officers get harsher penalties when they are found guilty of a crime. That is a known fact. When cops mess up, they are made examples of. I don't care if you believe me or not, but it is the truth.When cops get charged with a crime, they have access to the same lawyers everyone else does. We don't get any special Johnny Cochran super lawyers.If you think that we get any special treatment from our IA Officers, you have never been part of an IA.

I have never been part of any IA or even worked in LE.

It does not take "being part of IA" or a rocket scientist to see in those Katrina murders LEO's were covering for each other with lies and deception on official reports and local PD Internal Affairs Office DID NOT DISPUTE those false reports. It took the FBI and Justice Department investigation to pin these fine LEO's to confess the truth in exchange for immunity, career survival now and retirement paychecks later on.

It does not take rocket scientist to see the conflict of interest in the system where IA serves the same boss and get their paycheck from same source. They are no better than BBB with respect to complaints against con-man businesses. They are there more or less for window dressing, sweep dirt under the carpet where/when they can get away with it and to hand out the pacifiers in case **** hit the fan and public outcry outweigh saving their "buddies".

I am sorry, while I am pro-LE and cannot imagine what our society will be like without a functional and professional LE, I do not find the current system as having adequate check and balance built in to safeguard citizens from abuses by a minority of "bad apples" among the ranks. Until the police themselves get rid of the "brotherhood" subculture, the issue will never be properly addressed.

[sfsmedic]

Ok can we lock this. It's just gone so far into left field and is turning quickly towards us against them and I friggin hate that. I'm a LEO and I have no doubt in my mind we have corrupt as in any job. But don't even compare me to that dung heap we are stuck with by saying we ALL cover for each other because we don't.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Paulo_Santos]

I have never been part of any IA or even worked in LE. It does not take "being part of IA" or a rocket scientist to see in those Katrina murders LEO's were covering for each other with lies and deception on official reports and local PD Internal Affairs Office DID NOT DISPUTE those false reports. It took the FBI and Justice Department investigation to pin these fine LEO's to confess the truth in exchange for immunity, career survival now and retirement paychecks later on. It does not take rocket scientist to see the conflict of interest in the system where IA serves the same boss and get their paycheck from same source. They are no better than BBB with respect to complaints against con-man businesses. They are there more or less for window dressing, sweep dirt under the carpet where/when they can get away with it and to hand out the pacifiers in case **** hit the fan and public outcry outweigh saving their "buddies". I am sorry, while I am pro-LE and cannot imagine what our society will be like without a functional and professional LE, I do not find the current system as having adequate check and balance built in to safeguard citizens from abuses by a minority of "bad apples" among the ranks. Until the police themselves get rid of the "brotherhood" subculture, the issue will never be properly addressed.You keep reverting back to the same Katrina stuff. I think everyone is in agreement that Katrina was an example of how bad cops and regular citizens behaved. If that's all you can bring to the thread, then it is pointless to continue wasting my time and everyone else's. I'm going to take the advise of other LE Officers and take the high road.

[dark1]

Isn't it time to lock list trend it is getting nowhere and I thought we did-away with the discussion forum for a resin and.....this trend is getting nowhere other than getting ugly