Never Has This Problem With All Male Crews

[sop2510]

Navy Ship Commander Faces Court-Martial Over Alleged Sexual Assault of Crew Members

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/10/28/navy-ship-commander-faces-court-martial-over-alleged-sexual-assault-crew/#ixzz1c4XFCyJB


And now they want to put women on submarines where there's no place to hide!

IMHO, the military is not and never was an organization for social experimentation. They need to quit trying to make the services model society and let them do what they are best at doing - killing our enemies.

[Cajun_Mike]

When I went to boot camp for the Navy in 91, they experimented with "integrated companies." Those were males & females in the same company doing all their training together, but living in separate barracks. It was a complete & utter failure. The idea was scrapped after the 3rd integrated company completed their training.

Fast forward to a deployment I made in mid 94. I had to ride on the "Stinkin Lincoln" and while on board became friends with the MACS (Senior Chief Master at Arms). He informed me of talk of putting females on combatant ships (which would probably start with carriers). He was really concerned as there had already been around 10 sexual assaults & 3 rapes on board...with an all make crew (this doesn't include what may have or did happen during port calls).

The military has always been full of bad ideas. I'm all for women doing whatever they are capable of, but the military is different. Front line combat (regardless of branch) is for men only, in my book (fort many reasons).

[BradL45]

In time, even front line troops will be integrated IMHO. It's not going to be easy, and it might not happen in our lifetimes. Not to long ago Women could not vote, but we are progressing as a species.

Thugs who abuse or rape, need to do their time in lockup, and see if they can live within society. We can look to Police depts and Fire dept to see that it can work. The good ole boys club of the military just needs to be updated with the current times.

I'll say it again, it won't be easy, lots will resist, but change is inevitable.

I remember watching Aliens(my fav of the series), it's well in the future, and the space marines had both sexes working(and dying) side by side.

[sop2510]

One good thing about females in the military - if they'd had them in WWII they wouldn't have had as much trouble finding correctly sized gunners to fit in a B-17 ball turret. I still wouldn't want them on my submarine, so I guess I'll always be a male chauvinist pig.

[shooter_gregg]

In time, even front line troops will be integrated IMHO. It's not going to be easy, and it might not happen in our lifetimes. Not to long ago Women could not vote, but we are progressing as a species.

Thugs who abuse or rape, need to do their time in lockup, and see if they can live within society. We can look to Police depts and Fire dept to see that it can work. The good ole boys club of the military just needs to be updated with the current times.

I'll say it again, it won't be easy, lots will resist, but change is inevitable.

I remember watching Aliens(my fav of the series), it's well in the future, and the space marines had both sexes working(and dying) side by side.

This is pure pablum for social engineers. The front line fighters aren't always recruited in the best circumstances. Some are avoiding jail time or worse. Boot camp teaches them to harness their aggressive tendencies for fighting.
There is a reason the military covers up incidents involving women. Women make lousy warriors. Their nature is to nurture and heal things at heart. The women might be able to shoot as well as men but in a stand up fight they can't handle a much bigger and stronger (male) adversary. There is too much instinct in both men and women to overcome.
Don't quote Hollywood on proper battlefield roles for women. Aliens is fiction in more ways than science.

Fire and police departments had to rewrite training manuals to accommodate women's weaker strength. There are things they can do that don't require as much strength like EMT, but loaded down with bunker gear they don't have the stamina to fight a fire for extended periods. There are women in police uniform who are assaulted by men who wouldn't even consider it against male officer.
I don't doubt their hearts, just their ability compared to men.


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[jdgilbert]

If you do a little research you'll find decisions like fire departments changing to aluminum ladders instead of wooden ones so that females could carry them. That sounds wonderful, yes real progress! Until you realise the injuries and danger to the firefighters rises because when an aluminum ladder is heat compromised it's very difficult to tell. Wood does not transmit heat, and it is readily obvious when a wooden ladder has been fire damaged. Sometimes progress is not really progress at all. If you have to make special rules to allow people to compete for a position, whether a civilian job, emergency services or military you weaken the entire unit. The most ironic thing is that the vast majority of the people who believe we have to make everything in life easy for everyone regardless of their strengths and weaknesses also believe in evolution. You know, the theory based on the premise of "Survival of the fittest".

[68WJ]

Lower the bar enough, you won't be able to fit beneath...:a43:

[BamaInArk]

Not sure how the other Service Academy did things but I used to fly with quite a few Air Force Academy grads. Some of these guys were from the days before and after they let women begin attending the service academies. I think it was the Class of 79 as the last class with no females. They used the initials "LCWB" on their class rings. Last Class With Balls

I seem to remember hearing of a few Generals, whom after retirement, wrote books about how readiness was seriously affected by some of the integration of females in traditional male jobs.

I do remember how once all the desert deployments got started from the first gulf war how many women seemed to come home pregnant and use that as an excuse to "get out." My first real commander was a female. She was our Tech School Sq commander during my early days in the mil. She later was accepted to pilot training but was killed in a plane crash. That made her the first women AF pilot to die in an aviation accident or something to that affect. Maybe the first female to die in UPT.

[mas360]

Russian women served valiantly in combat during WWII. The Red Army had 2,000 female snipers and they proved their worth on front line. Only 500 out of these 2,000 survived the war, one of them was Lt. Lyudmila Pavlichenko, who was credited with 309 combat kills. Thirty six of her kills were German snipers. She was wounded four times. Lt. Pavlichenko was no she-man either. She was good looking and was a college student at Kiev when the German invaded Russia. After the war she finished her college education and served as a historian with the Soviet Navy.


4718




Israeli Defense Force employs women in front line combat units.

Many insurgence combat units in South America are staffed with female warriors.

The Kurdish in northern Iraq regularly deploy female combatants.

North Vietnam vast AAA network was manned mainly by women and they made serious scores on US air fleet during the ten-year long bombing campaign.

If women from many other nations can do it, why not American women?

[Munkie667]

I watched a Chief get hammered by the fallout of Tailhook. The woman (I use the term woman loosely as she was 18 and acted like a child.) accused him of trading sex for advancement. Long story short after he was booted from the Navy, and his wife of 18 years left him, less then a year later she called rape on two Ensigns. During the court-martial it came out that she was not telling the truth about the Ensigns or the Chief. When the Navy found out that they discharged one of their own to a lie they were a bit upset. He was reinstated and he was given his retirement paperwork. The list of other things that happened because of this little girl crying wolf is long. On the flip side I have seen a woman that would work herself 2 times as hard as any man because she thought she had to prove herself. She was an outstanding tech. She was about 25lbs heavier then the 86lbs ammo cans we use, and she would hump ammo just as long as the rest of us. And she was sexually assaulted. She almost did not report it because she thought it would make her look weak. So what is my point? I guess, it is that I have seen the girl who cried wolf and I have seen the girl who worked her fingers to the bone. Do I want women in combat? No, I do not. (The views expressed in this post in no way reflects the view of 68 Forums...) Do I think that females have no place in the military? They do have a place. I just do not think it is on any line unit. Call me a dinosaur, or whatever other name you have for my line of thinking. Just my 2¢

[Jamesb74]

WOW!!! This is a damned interesting thread!!!

[sfsmedic]

When I was working law enforcement overseas on bases that had navy females on it. There was nearly always a navy female prostitution ring going on. I only saw it deployed never on stateside basis. Was always Navy and never any other branch also.


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[Munkie667]

I have seen similar Doc. Mostly on bigger ships. When I was doing security on the USS GW we had a female LTjg pimping herself and three other girls out. They got caught because of a zone inspector (Person that is looking for things wrong with a Divisions area of responsibility on the ship. This happens about once a month per division, depending on the size of the ship.) found the LTjgs little black book that had appointments and checks (Yes, as in from a checkbook.) from her "Johns". And this happened while we were in dry dock. We also found a room full of grow lights... but that is another story.

[BittenbytheBug]

Way too easy a subject to get me started on as well. I'm going to just say that this is just "one more thing" that rips my guts out and at the same time makes me happy that I had a mostly wonderful and fulfilling career in the Navy. The military is not society at large and all too often is used in that vein - it's purpose is to defend this country. It isn't what it was and that downward spiral in overall capability will continue.

[68WJ]

When I was working law enforcement overseas on bases that had navy females on it. There was nearly always a navy female prostitution ring going on. I only saw it deployed never on stateside basis. Was always Navy and never any other branch also.


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Yep, I always heard about women sailors and Marines getting coming back from floats with seabags full of cash. Sometimes they got caught. I also know male Marines who could get their rear-end handed to them by most any WM. It was pathetic to see them wear the Eagle, Globe, and Anchor, but still cry during martial arts training because "it hurt".

[sfsmedic]

Hahaha


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[sop2510]

I never have understood why women want to be men.
And the real irony is how they hate Sarah Palin because she hunts moose!

[chasw]

In the Regular Army, the quality of male recruits varies from excellent to abysmal. During times of rapid build up, the Army will take just about anyone. An otherwise healthy man in my BCT platoon wore special boots because one leg was about 2 inches shorter than the other. Some recruits were fat, lazy and very un-manly. One fellow could only throw the old 21-oz grenade less than 10 yards.

Meanwhile, there are women out there, with above average physical fitness, compared to today's male recruits. Not all women, obviously, but I've seen some at the local gym who definitely fit the bill. There is no real reason, except for tradition and prejudice, why they could not serve in a rifle platoon and hold their own, along with the male riflemen, against any enemy. In fact, the mere presence of women in a combat unit would put a damper on some of the juvenile antics of the enlisted males. Just my opinion of course - CW

[Munkie667]

I am not saying a woman can't do the job. As I stated above a woman I worked with was a hard worker and she never backed down from a task. Yes, there is a but... I have seen the fairer sex both exploit and be exploited on active duty. It is in no way right. And they want to be treated as equals... but the PT standards are different, so unequal and the list goes on. Most (key word) don't want to be treated equal. But they want the chance to do the job. That is fine. I want to see the same standard for both male and female across the board. I have watched a woman run (and swim) circles around both other females and males. Hell I watched 2 female MM (Machinist's Mate) lift an engine block for a motor whale boat to get it on the motor mounts from a chain fall that was to short for the job. Can they do the job? Yes some can. I have also seen the female that had nails, hair and uniform out of regs and refused to do anything that had to do with her job. She go away with it because her NCO was sick of doing paperwork just to have it kicked back at him. She talked to the command EOO (Equal Opportunity Officer) and got a good NCO in a bunch of trouble over B$ charges. As far as I know she was never in regulation for haircut or her nails. The tailored uniforms did go away. I have also seen a female that was in deck department on my first ship, she was never given the opportunity to get advanced quals for watch standing or crane operations. She was stuck busting her butt in the rigging shop because she tied some of the best knots I have ever seen. However she was bored out of her mind. I have seen sexiest pigs in the upper chain of command do unacceptable things in MY Navy get away with it because of the color of their uniform. I have also watched a Senor NCO's get $*&@-canned because a woman did not like being told she was a piss poor worker.

I am off my soap box.

The US military as a whole are just not equipped to deal with females in a realistic and timely manner. Other nations do not have the same views instilled from a young age. I could go on for hours. Long story, short... We as a nation need to grow up and get our collective heads wired strait. Until WE do we are going to continue to have problems.

[Cajun_Mike]

We as a nation need to grow up and get our collective heads wired strait. Until WE do we are going to continue to have problems.

AMEN! I'm in total agreement there!

[mas360]

The sentiment regarding women in combat units, as shown on this thread, points to a general disapproval and negative view by men.

In your opinion why did/does it work with other nations and yet in your experience/sentiment it did not/does not work with American females?

[sfsmedic]

First off you have to understand the mindset of the American individual over foreign individuals in the military. We have this mindset of its not my fault and we are all owed something. We expect retribution if we are offended and we are so easily offended that we are always owed something. If you dont believe me, just look at the reaction of the individual who starts to change lanes into you because they dont see you. You honk to let them know your there and what do to they do? FLip you off because its your fault for being in their way. In the military this behavior is taken advantage and retribution doled out easily moreso to the females and not so much to the males. If you reward for the behavior more (even those who wouldnt have prior to) will take advantage of such behaviors. Foreign militaries dont allow this and actually dont run into the problem as much because woman are put into roles better suited them even if they are in the same unit as men. I have much personal first hand experience with foreign militaries so I can back these claims from seeing it. I believe we can all agree men and woman have tasks each are better suited for inherently than the other, the foreign militaries take advantage of this. We do not.

Ive worked with some outstanding female troops and would deploy with them in a heart beat. I had a female E4 who was one of my fireteam leaders and she was my go to fireteam leader for many things because of her ability to get the job done. I do not believe man or woman are better than eachother, I believe each is better suited for different roles. When we did base security the female security troops were able to fill every and all roles that the male counterparts did effectively. When we set up a FOB or did LRPs we would not take female troops with us. Not becuase they could see combat but because hygenically it wasnt feasible. A male is better suited to sit in the muck and wet for days where a female wasnt due to easier routes for infection. If you still think the old thought of men act differently when women are injured in combat than you need to step out of the stone age, that is easily overcome through training. Besides we all act differently when any brother is hurt same goes for sister and tight knit groups are family. If you think women cant drag an injured troop or carry a full ruck than you need to look at some of the scrawny or fat we get as troops these days, many women are in better shape than the males. I currently work with two females who will smoke most the men in the agency with the PT test. Carrie holds the record for female pull ups at the academy, the number is 23 strict pull ups. Julie was honorgrad over all the others in her class, shot a perfect 300, bested everyone in the run, and beat all the excellent marks for the male status in her age group. Id fight along side either of these two anyday. There are legitimate reasons why woman are detrimental to units and its not the fault of the females its the fault of the handler (in this case the US military) for letting them get away with what they get away with. You scold a dog for begging then feed it a scrap, it will continue to beg. Is it the dogs fault or yours?

[BradL45]

I served in the Army, and rarely had contact with any women soldiers, but I did have a Female Dentist pull my Wisdom teeth.

Some of those Navy stories sound ****ty, when one Gender can trash another's Carrier. In time it will regulate it self out, and the rules need to apply to all, and not have any gender bias. If a trooper falls short on PT, shooting, or humping a 120lb load, move them to another non-combat MOS. Some other jobs require heavy lifting, if someone can't get it done, make them a cook and no re-inlistment. The American work force in General still has issues between the sexes, and we always will have it, we are from different planets after all.

The Military is Huge, and it's going to have issues, and no matter how you trim the fat, some are going to be left that abuse the system, some people just suck, and they would still suck outside the Military too.

Other nations are making it work, it's not easy I'm sure. I just think we are heading that way too. We are slow to get the ball rolling, just look at us and the metric system, it could be 30 or more years before we adopt it. Military uses it, Dr's use it, I'd be lost in Chemistry if we Didn't use it, but yet we resist change, it's in our nature. The conversion to using Kilometers and Liters will be short and sweet :)

[Ratdog68]

I have mixed emotions on it (from a LEO stand-point... "back in the day"). First off... I'm old enough to be weighing some "old school thinking" bias too... so, take it for what you paid for it.

I've had female co-workers that were better than some of the men I worked with (tough, eager to jump in when it went south...), her willingness to jump in and act almost got her in trouble once, but, she was teachable at critical moments. She also remembered to hit the deck when shot at while spoiling a burglary in progress... even if her lack of formal training (so new) caused her to forget to draw and return fire... but, she jumped back to her feet and gave chase as best as she could. And, I've had some that wanted nothing more to do with the badge/uniform than to recover stolen bicycles, return lost puppies, and give drunks a ride home. They'd give you a WTF??? look (like I was crazy) when I'd remind them this next call was "theirs" to handle. We called this one "The Sphynx". She didn't even want to get out of the car on a "regular" call. I've had others that their mere presence (spelled=MOUTH) made my work more difficult (since they had an "ape" handy to bail their mouths out of their overloaded asses). This same one had a completely different demeanor when she worked with a man that was her own size.

On the other hand... I've worked with "men" who stood behind their partners and peaked around their shoulder to "watch" without getting involved, and just got in the way more than anything else. I had the "joy" to FTO another one (man) who literally started gagging as soon as we'd step into a residence that had a little bit of "clutter" (not filth... just clutter). He also refused to allow the training to sink into his skull that he could NOT stand infront of a door when knocking on it while responding to a call. He also was incapable of hitting the broad side of a barn with a service revolver. Nicest guy in town, well-meaning, put forth effort... but, worthless as a cop. He ended up going back to the grocery business (where he came from).

The downside to all of the above? We weren't a large enough department to be able to plop these various folks into specialized rolls that fit their specific talents. If they're teachable, striving to be an asset (rather than a liability), and capable... I don't care whether they're able to stand to pee or not. I'll take a GOOD woman for a co-worker over a useless man. But, my age tends to give a fairly critical eye "when a woman wants to fill a man's roll", and she'd better be able to demonstrate she's got what it takes to win me over.

[MINN6.8]

I think when I was in the Submarine Service 63-70, if we had women onboard for our extended patrols...We would leave with 110 crew members and come back with 130 crew members. Sometime these social experiments should be recognized for what they are.

[Munkie667]

I have to agree with what Doc, Brad and RatDog said. (No soap box this time.)

[BradL45]

Big story today on CNN, Presidential candidate accused of sexual misconduct. Battle of the sexes is STILL in full swing, everywhere, I think it's political motivated, and in the USA, we are never short of Drama. We will never live in a society free of the drama King and Queens.

[Munkie667]

Frag Drama. Why is it that we enjoy other peoples drama? Now before you say I can't stand drama.... Understand that DRAMA is like a train wreak. Once you look, it is hard to look away. In today's media it is almost impossible to avoid drama of some sort. Be it the new princess of wales... or what happened to some lead singer of some band I have not cared about in 30 years. I dislike drama in my personal life. I try to keep it to a bare minimum. But no matter what happens it will get you in the end.

Crap I thought this was on the Betty Crocker Forums...

[sop2510]

I guess the women versus men thing came to a head (no pun intended) for me when I was standing at the urinal in a New Orleans men's room during Mardi Gras and some sweet looking thing came up the urinal next to mine, hiked up her skirt and took a leak. That's when I realized that nothing was sacred anymore. And it was reinforced about a month or two later in the local hospital's emergency room when I had a black female doctor gave me a "finger wave" (digital exam for you non-Navy guys) when I came in with severe stomach cramps. I've been fighting against womens' rights ever since.

[mas360]

First off you have to understand the mindset of the American individual over foreign individuals in the military. We have this mindset of its not my fault and we are all owed something. We expect retribution if we are offended and we are so easily offended that we are always owed something. If you dont believe me, just look at the reaction of the individual who starts to change lanes into you because they dont see you. You honk to let them know your there and what do to they do? FLip you off because its your fault for being in their way. In the military this behavior is taken advantage and retribution doled out easily moreso to the females and not so much to the males. If you reward for the behavior more (even those who wouldnt have prior to) will take advantage of such behaviors. Foreign militaries dont allow this and actually dont run into the problem as much because woman are put into roles better suited them even if they are in the same unit as men. I have much personal first hand experience with foreign militaries so I can back these claims from seeing it. I believe we can all agree men and woman have tasks each are better suited for inherently than the other, the foreign militaries take advantage of this. We do not.



The entitlement mindset you refer to is not exclusive with females. It is national. Here is an example.

The 507th Maintenance company got ambushed in Nasiriyah in March 2003, Private Jessica Lynch and several other troops were captured. The Iraqi released videos of these captured GIs, who showed facial expressions of fear and terror. George Bush then gave a stern warning to the Iraqi that American POWs were to be treated with dignity per Geneva convention.
In December 2003 Saddam was captured and video of Saddam in pathetic condition being poked and probed with dental stick like a cow by unidentified US personnel while in custody was put on the air. It was worse than images of the 507th GIs in captivity earlier in March. The Abu Ghraib scandal then followed in 2004 and you know how bad those images which circulated worldwide were like.

That shows how much the entitlement mindset has soaked into our national psyche from the top on down to common citizens. We deemed ourselves entitled to decent treatment for our POWs in hostile custody but yet we do not believe our enemy is entitled to same standards we demand from them. That mindset certainly is not exclusive among American females. It so happens that our military society now has to deal with that mindset within some female individuals. That, however, is not the main stumbling block.

Female combatants in other nations' military establishment were successful because they served for a very just cause, which was self-defense of their homeland. Take Russian female combat troops during WWII for example. They entered military service at the time where the Wehrmacht was marching across the Russian frontier by leaps and bounds and was closing in on Moscow. Their homeland was mercilessly razed by German troops and for them it was either to fight or to be killed/enslaved. Both males and females had a common cause to fight for. They focused on that cause and they look at each other as comrades in arms instead of competitors. Same to say for female troops of Israel, Kurds in northern Iraq, North Vietnam...etc... Today Russian female troops are no longer in combat role. Israeli army also does not deploy female troops to combat posts like they did in the 50s and early 60's.

That has not been the case with our military since the end of WWII. US military has been fighting on foreign soils and troops were not as well motivated or finding as much of a cause to be motivated.

Today, in an all volunteer military system it is more or less a career choice and thus the gender, sexual orientation, race issues are amplified.

If the USA is physically invaded, there is no doubt Americans of both genders will fight efficiently well together in the same trench as the Red Army did in WWII. Male and female combatants will be complementing each others' forte and weakness like a team in order to survive and save their homeland instead of focusing on each other weaknesses to be negative about.

[Munkie667]

I like the way you think mas.

[sfsmedic]

I never claimed it to be with females only. If that was how it was understood I apologize. I merely suggested that the females in the military tend to get away with it more often than the males. I completely agree its a whole society thing that Americans suffer from.


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[68WJ]

The 507th Maintenance company got ambushed in Nasiriyah in March 2003, Private Jessica Lynch and several other troops were captured.
I find this one of the most compelling arguments against women in combat. I took a small interest in this incident because I was in Nasiriyah soon enough afterwards that her convoy's vehicles were still smoking (first destroyed US vehicles that I saw). Without Google, can anyone tell me the names of the other soldiers in the convoy? How about the soldier who continued to engage the enemy (including a mortar team) until he was unable to fire his rifle? What many can remember is the almost theatrical rescue mission of PFC Lynch (footage made news casts almost immediately), TV interviews, and book deals. Why the special attention? My concern isn't so much with what happened to her in the attack, it is America's and the military's reaction.


Today, in an all volunteer military system it is more or less a career choice and thus the gender, sexual orientation, race issues are amplified.

If the USA is physically invaded, there is no doubt Americans of both genders will fight efficiently well together in the same trench as the Red Army did in WWII. Male and female combatants will be complementing each others' forte and weakness like a team in order to survive and save their homeland instead of focusing on each other weaknesses to be negative about.
Agreed.

[mas360]

I find this one of the most compelling arguments against women in combat. I took a small interest in this incident because I was in Nasiriyah soon enough afterwards that her convoy's vehicles were still smoking (first destroyed US vehicles that I saw). Without Google, can anyone tell me the names of the other soldiers in the convoy? How about the soldier who continued to engage the enemy (including a mortar team) until he was unable to fire his rifle? What many can remember is the almost theatrical rescue mission of PFC Lynch (footage made news casts almost immediately), TV interviews, and book deals. Why the special attention? My concern isn't so much with what happened to her in the attack, it is America's and the military's reaction.



The other name associated with Jessica Lynch that I remember off the top of my head was a lady of native American ethnicity. I think her last name is Pestawa (spelling?). I am not sure what her first name is. She was in the same vehicle with Lynch. If I remember correctly there were several reports about that ambush and some claimed that most troops in that convoy did not return fire due to their weapons malfunctioning. There were no explanation what caused that many weapons to jam and why no routine maintenance/check out was performed given they were entering enemy territory and their lives depended on it.

Jessica was very straight forward about her experience. She rejected earlier stories weaved by the Pentagon and other politicians painting her as the Rambette going down kicking. She did not fire a single shot during the entire ambush. Her wounds were all related to the vehicle flipping over. There were no gun shot or stab wound. She testified the Iraqi hospital medical personnel treated her very well. She was upset with the Pentagon for using her as a propaganda tool.

One interesting note I remember about Jessica was her biography, I am a soldier too, written by Rick Bragg, a Pulitzer-prize winning journalist, stating she was raped by her Iraqi captors. Jessica stated she did not recall ever been raped or sexually assaulted by her captors, but Bragg convinced her to go with the story to let American people know what could happen to women soldiers. It ironically shows how a woman soldier was used by our own system and by a male for propaganda and to sell a book.

Another female soldier in the first Gulf war also went through captivity. If I remember correctly she was a ranking officer and also a doctor. She was shot down during a medvac mission. While in captivity an Iraqi guard groped her breast in the back of the truck while she was being transported to a camp. The news people were trying to play up that one, but she very calmly responded it was a part of being a soldier, not a big deal especially where the bullet wound in her shoulder was a whole lot more painful than some guy groping her breast, and as long as she survived that's all it mattered. I guess this lady was much older and more sophisticated than Jessica Lynch for the Pentagon and the press to pull a fast one.

[Munkie667]

From what I was told land nav (or lack there of) was the reason they were in that area to begin with. As to the weapons malfunctioning it was do to no maintenance being done on their .50 cals. It goes right back to the cotter pin.

[sop2510]

The Danica Patrick hype that starts every time she puts here pretty little tush in a race car. It's like nobody else is racing that day except her. One of these days she may actually win a major race.

[mas360]

From what I was told land nav (or lack there of) was the reason they were in that area to begin with. As to the weapons malfunctioning it was do to no maintenance being done on their .50 cals. It goes right back to the cotter pin.

I thought they had land nav, but it was mil type (coordinate screen) not the civilian type, which would tell driver where and when to turn.
Were the 50 cals the only ones malfunctioning? what about individual weapons....M16, M60, M240, SAW..etc..?

[Paulo_Santos]

It all boils down to training. I work with a couple of females and they are all different. One is very fit because she works out, she shoots well because she trains very hard, and she can handle herself because she has taken Brazilian Jijitsu and Muay Thai growing up. The other two are not so well trained and it shows. In the military, it was the same. Part of the problem is the agency who does not train or does not do a good job of screening people, but part of the problem is also the individual, who doesn't take the initiative to fix the issues they have on their own. This applies to men and women.

[Munkie667]

I thought they had land nav, but it was mil type (coordinate screen) not the civilian type, which would tell driver where and when to turn.
Were the 50 cals the only ones malfunctioning? what about individual weapons....M16, M60, M240, SAW..etc..?

The land nav I was talking about was basic map reading. As to the .50 cal it would be the initial response. Depending on the level of training, they lost second or even minutes in response time. I never asked about the other weapons malfunctioning because they did return fire. It just was not as quick as they would have liked.

[mas360]

Pentagon Correspondent Barbara Starr reporting from Ft. Bragg, North Carolina
Editor's note: CNN was the first television network to be allowed to film this elite training, for a story airing November 3 on Situation Room with Wolf Blitzer (http://situationroom.blogs.cnn.com/)

There's plenty of grunting and groaning during the early morning workouts in the gym at the JFK Special Warfare Center at Fort Bragg, North Carolina. But suddenly among the young men in special forces units doing pull-ups and lifting weights, there are dozens of young female troops - running an obstacle course, pushing and pulling hundreds of pounds of kettlebells, running laps.
These women are part of a groundbreaking and controversial program that for the first time is selecting, training and assigning women to join up with special forces units in Afghanistan. Their job: to do what the men cannot.
In the socially conservative Afghan culture where the sexes do not mix, these women are on the front line of dealing directly with Afghan women and children.
So-called female engagement teams, or "cultural support teams," have been used increasingly in recent years by the U.S. military. But the difference here is that these women are selected to team up with elite special forces.
Afghans deeply resent special forces units' raids on their homes and villages when they are searching for high-value targets. The military women, it is hoped, will ease some of that resentment. Once a raid has secured an area, the women will move in and be the ones who search Afghan women, something male troops cannot do without causing great upset.
The women also are living and working with special forces teams in small villages and towns, talking to women and helping with medical care and social needs.
Maj. Patrick McCarthy evaluates candidates applying to join the program and decides who will be selected for the rigorous six-week training course at Fort Bragg.
About half of those who apply don't get selected.
McCarthy says he is looking for both brain and brawn. And he wants troops who can make quick decisions in the murky circumstances troops often find themselves in on the front lines of Afghanistan.
"These women are a cut above the rest of the Army," says McCarthy, pointing to a group in a morning training class.
If this calls to mind the Demi Moore film "GI Jane," it is a comparison that Capt. Annie Kleiman, a team member, rejects.
"We're not going to be shaving our heads anytime soon," she says. But she is firm on one point: "We've got a bunch of strong, capable, awesome women who can take any challenge that's thrown at us."
The women know they still must prove themselves once they are in Afghanistan.
"This is the first time women have formally worked with special operations forces." says Staff Sgt Danielle Bayer, also part of the training course. "It's being acknowledged women can operate at this level."
It's a politically delicate issue. Women are not allowed to serve in front-line combat units. So these women - heavily armed - will only go into compounds after they are secured by assault teams.
"The women that are on raids, they're not deliberately part of the direct-action raid. They are there to help mitigate following the raid," says McCarthy.
But in a war with no true front line, these women will face risks being so far from larger, more secure military bases. Just last month, 1st Lt. Ashley White, who was a team member, and two male soldiers were killed (http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/28/us/afghanistan-ranger-killed/index.html?iref=allsearch) during what the Army described as "combat operations" in Afghanistan.
The first death of a team member has made the program so sensitive that no senior Army special operations commander would talk to CNN on camera.
But the women did.
"This is a program that is going to keep going on," said Sgt. Christine Baldwin, who is just back from Afghanistan. "It's a need that needs to be met over there right now."

[sop2510]

I thought we were leaving Afghanistan. Why the heck are we training women to work with Special Forces over there?
Here's how it will go: The U.S. and NATO will pull out; Pakistan will work with the Taliban to allow them to take over the country; they will establish an Islamist government based on how they previously ran the country; and in five or ten years it will become another "safe house" for terrorist organizations.